Help with Translation Please

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ICHTHUS
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Help with Translation Please

Postby ICHTHUS » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:25 am

Hello, as a complete novice of the Hebrew language, I would like to know something on the correct translation of a word, please.

In 2 Samuel 23:2, is the Hebrew word, וּמִלָּתֹ֖ו literally, "her word", or "his word"? what I do know, is that the noun "מִלָּה" is feminine in gender.

Thanks very much

Andy

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Kirk Lowery
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Re: Help with Translation Please

Postby Kirk Lowery » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:41 am

The pronominal suffix is 3rd masculine singular. Does the fact that it refers back to ‎ר֥וּחַ which is a feminine noun concern you? If so, remember that grammatical gender and "real" gender are not always the same. ‎ר֥וּחַ refers to God, which is usually understood to be masculine -- in the speaker's/writer's mind. That's why it the pronoun is masculine and not feminine.

Hope this helps.
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ICHTHUS
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Re: Help with Translation Please

Postby ICHTHUS » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:29 am

Hi Kirk, thanks for your helpful comments. I thought that the noun being feminine, would refer back to the Holy Spirit, even though the suffix is in the masculine? I see this in 2 Samuel 23:2, where the Spirit of the Lord is the subject, and even though ר֥וּחַ is feminine, yet דִּבֶּר is in the masculine, ans refers to the one subject. Likewise in Isaiah 40:13, "”Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has taught Him?", where in the MT the Hebrew יֹודִיעֶֽנּוּ is masculine in gender, yet the DSS has the feminine. The former would refer the "Him" back to "the Lord", and the latter, to "the Spirit".

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Re: Help with Translation Please

Postby kwrandolph » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:17 am

Kirk Lowery wrote:The pronominal suffix is 3rd masculine singular. Does the fact that it refers back to ‎ר֥וּחַ which is a feminine noun concern you?


Are you sure that this is not a compound noun, namely רוח יהוה and not merely רוח? If so, then רוח יהוה would take the masculine conjugation.

Kirk Lowery wrote:If so, remember that grammatical gender and "real" gender are not always the same. ‎ר֥וּחַ refers to God, which is usually understood to be masculine -- in the speaker's/writer's mind. That's why it the pronoun is masculine and not feminine.


Note, the verb is also Qatal masculine singular.

Karl W. Randolph.

ICHTHUS
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Re: Help with Translation Please

Postby ICHTHUS » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:12 am

Hi Kirk and Karl, thanks for your interesting comments, they are very useful. I was wondering if passages like Ezekiel 11:1-5, where we have "the Spirit" (רוּחַ, feminine) as the subject, in verse 2 when we read, "then said He to me", that the "יֹּ֖אמֶר", though masculine singular, would here refer back to "רוּחַ"? In verse five, "ר֣וּחַ יְהוָה֒" is the one subject (like 2 Samuel 23:2), so the "יֹּ֣אמֶר" (said to me) though again masculine, would here refer back to the subject, "ר֣וּחַ יְהוָה֒"? My understanding of these passages is, that both the Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit are confirmed here. Am I right that the Hebrew grammar would support this? I see this in the New Testament, where Jesus speaking of the Holy Spirit in John's Gospel, even though "πνευμα", is in the neuter, Jesus says "εκεινος", which is masculine, where the Greek grammar would have required the neuter, "εκεινο" (15:26). Likewise, in 16:7, again Jesus uses, "αυτον", which also is masculine, where the Greek grammar would have required the neuter, "αυτο". By this language, Jesus is referring to the Holy Spirit as a Person, like Himself, and makes sure to remove any uncertainty from the minds of those who suppose that the Holy Spirit is a mere "power or influence", and impersonal.

I don't think that "ר֣וּחַ יְהוָה֒" is a compound word, as they are two separate words, which are never used as one unit, as we have with "μονογενής", which is from "μόνος and γένος". However, both "ר֣וּחַ יְהוָה֒" are the one and same subject.

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Re: Help with Translation Please

Postby Joseph » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:38 am

It's a pretty weak argument to argue for the personality of the Holy Spirit based upon grammatical gender. Consider Exodus 23:4... the text refers to an Ox or a donkey with a masculine suffix preposition. This doesn't ascribe personality...

I'm pretty sure Karl didn't mean the רוח יהוה should be formally one word. Rather it's an Ngram... multiple words combining together for one meaning. Basically what you said... "one and same subject"

As for deity, if you take ר֣וּחַ as the Holy Spirit, it would definitely be equated with יהוה... Personality would be supported as well since the Spirit would have all the personality of God. The only hiccup you might have would be in explaining this as a reference to a separate member of the godhead. The רוח here probably has more of the idea of "breath" in mind. I would see the construction רוח יהוה as roughly equivalent to the Greek θεόπνευστος (2 Tim. 3:16), meaning "inspiration" or literally "God breathed."
Joseph Coates

ICHTHUS
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Re: Help with Translation Please

Postby ICHTHUS » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:17 am

Hi Joseph, thanks for your comments. I am not saying that the Personality of the Holy Spirit is determined by the grammatical gender of the language used. What I am saying, is, that the use of the grammar in both the Hebrew and Greek, when used of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit is important. Like אֱלֹהִים is masculine and plural, which I believe is because it speaks of the plurality of Persons in the Godhead. Like we also have in Eccles, 12.1, the use of בֹּ֣ורְאֶ֔יךָ which also is the masculine plural. The Bible is clear that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, were Creators.

As for the "distinct" Persons in the Godhead, this I believe to be seen from Isaiah 48:16, where the Speaker is יְהֹוָה, and yet He says the אֲדֹנָ֧י יְהוִ֛ה has "sent Me and His Spirit", where רוּחַ is the second object, other than the Speaker, who is the Lord Jesus Christ (The Servant in 49:1, 3), and both were sent by another Person!

In the passages of Ezekiel and Samuel, we have רוּחַ as the subject and speaker, which can hardly be understood as "wind or breath", but contextually can only refer to the Holy Spirit. In Job 33:4 we read, "The Spirit of God has made (created) me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life", where we have רֽוּחַ and נִשְׁמַ֖ת which shows that both are not the same, and רֽוּחַ refers to the Person of the Holy Spirit.

In the example I gave from 2 Samuel 23:2, where we have , מִלָּתֹ֖ו which is 3rd person masculine singular, which refers back to, ר֥וּחַ יְהוָ֖ה which is a combination of feminine and masculine for the one subject. Interestingly that תֹּ֕אמֶר was not used instead, which is the 3rd person feminine singular? Either way it is the Holy Spirit here meant as He is speaking through David, and the words in verse 3, "The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me", also refer to the Holy Spirit. Personality and Deity in this passage.


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