The letter vav

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S_Walch
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:41 pm

Re: The letter vav

Postby S_Walch » Mon May 21, 2018 7:46 am

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Karl,
I was thinking that you wanted cases where את means "with" and not where it is the direct object marker. If the DSS spells one different than the other, that would help to determine whether the את should mean "with" or be the direct object marker.


No, my question is, how many times is את meaning “with” spelled as אות? So far, I’ve located 39 times in the MT, 25 of which are found in just two books—Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Does not this spelling indicate that the original pronunciation of “with” was ōt or ōte, and not et as in modern pronunciation?

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In Isaiah I had located one such spelling in 59:12, you mention two occurrences. How many more in the rest of the surviving DSS? What does that spelling indicate about the original pronunciation of “with”?

Karl W. Randolph.

There's 890 of these in the Tanakh ( :shock: ), so this will certainly take a while to get through!

Will let you know once checked.
Ste Walch

Isaac Fried
Posts: 949
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: The letter vav

Postby Isaac Fried » Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm

I have written the two sentences:
ובכל הבלגן הזה "and in all this confusion"
ובכל זאת נוע תנוע "And yet it moves"
on a piece of paper and have asked some of my friends (all men) to read it aloud. Most have read ובכל as UVEXOL with a soft B=V and a soft כ K, that I marked with an X as for ח, there being no distinction in spoken Hebrew between a soft כ K and a ח.
But some (fewer) have read it as VEBEXOL with an E and a hard B.
It needs to be said that all men in this experiment recite daily the biblical statement (Deut. 6:5)
וְאָהַבְתָּ אֵת יהֹוה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּכָל לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל נַפְשְׁךָ וּבְכָל מְאֹדֶךָ

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Isaac Fried
Posts: 949
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: The letter vav

Postby Isaac Fried » Mon May 21, 2018 7:20 pm

Ste Walch writes: "That assumes that the Masoretic vowel-pointing is correct in such cases." I am puzzled as to what is considered "correct" and what is considered "incorrect" pointing.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

S_Walch
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:41 pm

Re: The letter vav

Postby S_Walch » Tue May 22, 2018 6:16 am

To clarify, it was a comment as to whether ובכל was rightly given the vowel points וּבְכָל by the Masoretes, or whether they got them wrong.

Now for וּבְ, I think they're more showing the Tiberian dialect, but I have no evidence (yet) to give on such.

For כל however, it most definitely should be pointed as כֹל each and every time, no matter what it has prefixed to it, or what follows it in construct.

I defer to the many places of כול in the DSS for that.

Edit:
Plus just in case someone thinks I'm only basing this on the Great Isaiah Scroll; here is a preliminary list from manuscripts containing sections from the Torah that have the full plene spelling of כל as כול (manuscript name + verse where the plene is extant):

1QGen; Genesis 3:14
4QExodc; Exodus 15:20
2QExodb; Exodus 18:22; 34:10
4QLevg; Leviticus 7:21, 23, 24
4QLevd; Leviticus 15:22; 17:11 (addition not seen in MT)
4QNumb; Numbers 11:32 (x3); 16:3, 6, 8; 18:29 (x2), 31; 25:2; 30:1, 9; 31:48, 51; 32:26
2QNumb; Numbers 33:52
4QDeutm; Deuteronomy 3:18; 7:19
4QDeutj; Deuteronomy 5:1, 28, 31; 6:2; 8:6; 21a (21a-n in this mss are actually from Exodus 12:43-13:5)
4QDeutn; Deuteronomy 5:8, 13, 15, 21, 22, 23, 27; 8:9
4QDeutk1; Deuteronomy 11:6, 7, 8
4QDeutk2; Deuteronomy 19:8, 15; 20:15, 18
Ste Walch

kwrandolph
Posts: 880
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: The letter vav

Postby kwrandolph » Tue May 22, 2018 10:37 pm

S_Walch wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:No, my question is, how many times is את meaning “with” spelled as אות? So far, I’ve located 39 times in the MT, 25 of which are found in just two books—Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Does not this spelling indicate that the original pronunciation of “with” was ōt or ōte, and not et as in modern pronunciation?

------------------------

In Isaiah I had located one such spelling in 59:12, you mention two occurrences. How many more in the rest of the surviving DSS? What does that spelling indicate about the original pronunciation of “with”?

Karl W. Randolph.

There's 890 of these in the Tanakh ( :shock: ), so this will certainly take a while to get through!

Will let you know once checked.


If it helps, here are the 39 times it is so found in MT:

“With” is written as אות in Lv 17:5, Js 10:25, 14:12, 1K 20:25, 22:7, 24, 2K 1:15, 3:11–2, 3:26, 6:16, 19, 10:6 Is 59:21, Jr 1:16, 4:12, 5:5, 10:5, 16:8, 19:10, 20:11, 35:2, Ez 2:6, 3:22, 27, 6:9, 7:27, 10:22, 16:60, 22:14, 23:8, 23, 25, 29, 33:32, 37:26, 38:9, 43:11, 17 (just those I have found so far). Do these examples indicate that the original pronunciation of את was “ōte” rather than “et” as in modern Hebrew?

Karl W. Randolph.


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