question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

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ralph
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:20 am

question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ralph »

Note that the 'o' in foot is different from the 'o' in food. (I don't need to specify british or american accent because both agree on this).
ducky wrote: ...old u...
So you say there's this "old u"

I understand you aren't big on english accents, but you said it's like the sound in the word "foot".

are you describing a kubutz? or shuruk? or both?!

Would you say kubutz or shuruk are pronounced the same?
Ralph Zak
ducky
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ducky »

Hi Ralph,

I didn't know that the "oo" in "food" and in "foot" is different.
interesting to know that.

****
The "u" is like "shuruq" and Qubuts"

but this is not the sound of the Qamats Qatan
The Qamats Qatan is like the Holam (o).

*******
When I wrote "u" - I mean that the Qamats Qatan that is pronounced as Holam (o) - was "born" from the "u" sound.

******
Another note:
you asked about Shuruq and Qubuts.
There is no difference between them.

The only reason that we have a "u" vowel that is called "Shuruq" and a "u" vowel that is called "Qubuts" is just because of the spelling of the word.

The Masoretic people, when they created the signs for the vowels were humbled to the spelling.
And so, when they saw an "u" sound (and there was no "Vav") they signed the "u" sound with "Qubuts".
But when there was an "u" sound and there was a "Vav" letter after it (which acted as a vowel letter), they put the sign of "Shuruq" (to mark the vowel letter).
And so, to signs were made for the same sound.
One which involved a vowel letter Vav
And one without it.

The same thing is with Holam (sometimes with Vav and sometimes without it) - but it is the same sound.

(I know that when someone starts to study, they teach it as a big vowel and small vowel, but it is not really accurate, and these vowels are not really relevant for that)
David Hunter
ralph
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:20 am

Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ralph »

ducky wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:45 pm Hi Ralph,

I didn't know that the "oo" in "food" and in "foot" is different.
interesting to know that.
It's really important!

The standard-UK/USA pronunciation of "put" https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/put /pʊt/

The standard-UK/USA pronunciation of "food" https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... glish/food /fuːd/

(that dictionary has a speaker so you can hear the word)

Is it that a kubutz/shuruk in a closed syllable would be like /pʊt/

And a kubutz/shuruk in an open syllable would be like /fuːd/


A Cholam can be with or without a vav.

Is a Shuruk only ever with a vav?

Is a kubutz only ever without a vav?
Ralph Zak
ducky
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ducky »

Hi Ralph,

These vowels thing is very interesting to me, but instead of referring to the words you put, maybe just listen to a Hebrew speaker (song, talk, or anything).

Here is a part of the "u" from a children song about the vowels
https://youtu.be/2FAUasGf9y8?t=180

*********************

remember that names are just names.
Shuruq is the name of the "u" sound when the Vav is involved
and the Qubuts is the name of the "u" sound when the Vav is not involved.
But it doesn't mean that the "u" is different.
The fact that Shuruq and Qubuts have different names is because the mark is different.

You can find a lot of words that are expected to be with Qubuts and they are written with Shuruq (because the spelling had Vav) - and vice versa.
But it doesn't mean that the vowel is certainly big or small.
There are Shuruqs that come as a small vowel
and there is a Qubuts that come as a big vowel
David Hunter
ralph
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:20 am

Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ralph »

ducky wrote: ...
look I learnt how to read hebrew in school. So I don't need a children's song. I can read chunks of a siddur/prayer book fast, i'm familiar with davening/jewish prayer.

and I understand what you are saying about kubutz and shuruk being the same sound. I've read that too. And I'm not disagreeing with you on that.

My example of "put" and "food" is perfect.. as it gives you links to hear exactly the difference.

Your childrens song doesn't answer the question I asked..

Of when you think it is like "put", and when you think it is like "food"?

(Or maybe you think it's like "put" and not like "food". Or maybe you think it's like "food" and not like "put")?

It might be tough for you to say because you might not be familiar with two sounds that are so similar.

I asked you.

Is it that a kubutz/shuruk in a closed syllable would be like "put"

And a kubutz/shuruk in an open syllable would be like "food"

(now that you know the different sound of "put" and "food").

And you don't have to listen to a noisy 4min childrens song to see the pronunciation of "put" and "food", it's literally a one second thing to listen to for "put" and for "food".

I do have a book somewhere that says that kubutz and shuruk are the same vocally.. just that shuruk is used when there's a vav, and kubutz when there is no vav. It also said that sometimes it's the oo like in food, and sometimes u like in put. depending on whether the syllable is open or closed, and whether there's stress on the syllable.

I think it effectively maybe said that if the syllable is closed an unstressed then it's like "put".

if it's an open syllable (then maybe whether stressed or not), it's like the oo in "food".


Also as for the questions I asked you here, I think maybe the answer to each of these A,B,C is YES, right?

A)A Cholam can be either with a vav or without a vav?

B)Is a Shuruk only ever with a vav?

C)Is a kubutz only ever without a vav?

You talk about small vowels and big vowels.. Maybe you mean short and long. I'm not using such language as it's possibly ambiguous. I'm not talking about a difference in length of sound! You can say "food" quickly or you can say "put" quickly!
Ralph Zak
ducky
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ducky »

Hi Ralph,

The answer to your 3 questions is Yes.

But I wanted to tell you (unsuccessfully) that these questions are not relevant to the main question you ask (about the pronunciation).

*****
I write "big and small" for the reason to not use the terms "long and short".
I write "big and small" for the grammar explanation.

*****
As for the sounds...
You need to understand that my ear is not really good with diction and vowels and I can't even pronounce the "put" and the "food" in the right way as the recording says.

I'll tell you this.
I read the Bible in the Yemenite accent.
I read the Bible in the Sephardic accent.
I speak Hebrew, sing Hebrew, and do everything Hebrew.

I have only one "u".
I never create "another u" in my life.

Maybe, those who have a sharp ear as you have, can hear a Hebrew speaker talk, and finds that in some cases his "u" is changing because of the condition of the syllable.
I don't know if that happens.
And if it does, then it happens naturally and unintentionally.
No one tries intentionally to create two "u"

As we talked before, Modern (and Sephardic) has only 5 vowels (a-i-e-o-u)
And therefore, every "u" is the same "u" (just like in the stupid song).
David Hunter
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