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H4853 and H7891

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:43 pm
by William Case
First I have no background in Hebrew translation but 1 Chronicles 15:27 translation of "the singing", and "the load" seem to indicate a single root word.
Can anyone elaborate on this or am I misreading it?

Re: H4853 and H7891

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:40 pm
by ducky
What do you mean by "single root word" and how do you see it

By the way, the משא does not come to say - "load"
it is more likely that the משא comes in the meaning of "proverbs" (Songs of wisdom or praise)
And he was in charge of the singers and lead them

Re: H4853 and H7891

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:53 pm
by talmid56
Hi William,

Welcome to B-Hebrew! Just a suggestion: if you are citing words with Strong's numbers, please give the Hebrew word along with the number. Some of us, like myself, don't refer to Strong's numbers. That way, we can be of more help to you, and it will save time. If you don't know how to type in Hebrew yet, you can give the transliteration (phonetic spelling). Though it is a good skill to learn to type in Hebrew, and there are some threads here which give tips on that.

Re: H4853 and H7891

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:24 pm
by Kenneth Greifer
William,

Do you use the site Blueletter Bible where you can look up a quote and then click on the letter c (I think) and it gives you a word by word dictionary for most of the words, and the dictionary if you look closely gives you the roots of words?
Also, you can use Biblehub which has a good commentary for each quote or whole sections of the Bible and a good dictionary word by word if you click on the word "Hebrew" in the top area of the screen when you are looking at a quote. Then you click on each Hebrew word that you want to look at in the dictionary.
On the Blue letter Bible, you can type in those numbers to see the dictionary. Actually I just realized the H at the front of those numbers means you were probably using that site.

Try it out and see if you can understand them. It might take a while to figure out those sites, but they are very helpful.

Re: H4853 and H7891

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:27 am
by Jason Hare
The verse reads:

וְדָוִ֞יד מְכֻרְבָּ֣ל ׀ בִּמְעִ֣יל בּ֗וּץ וְכָל־הַלְוִיִּם֙ הַנֹּֽשְׂאִ֣ים אֶת־הָֽאָר֔וֹן וְהַמְשֹׁ֣רְרִ֔ים וּכְנַנְיָ֛ה הַשַּׂ֥ר הַמַּשָּׂ֖א הַמְשֹֽׁרְרִ֑ים וְעַל־דָּוִ֖יד אֵפ֥וֹד בָּֽד׃

The word in red is singers or poets, people who write or perform songs or poetry. Notice that the word appears twice in the verse.

Notice the KJV translation of this verse:

«And David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, and all the Levites that bare the ark, and the singers, and Chenaniah the master of the song with the singers: David also had upon him an ephod of linen.»

Holladay says that the word מַשָּׂא maśśāʾ might refer to those among the singers who were responsible for choosing the key in which the song would be sung, or it could refer to those with the responsibility of transporting the singers from place to place. It is a noun that comes from the verbal root נשׂ״א nun-sin-alef, meaning “to carry, bear.”

Most people will caution you away from using Strong’s dictionary and the numbers associated with it, since it usually accompanies complete ignorance of the Hebrew (and Greek) language. Scholars don’t generally put much weight into Strong’s lack of nuance in his dictionary entries, which don’t take context or even accidence into account.

Re: H4853 and H7891

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:53 am
by Isaac Fried
נשא is essentially 'lift raise, elevate', and is used also for raising the voice, as in Gen. 27:38
וַיִּשָּׂא עֵשָׂו קֹלוֹ וַיֵּבְךְּ
NIV: "Then Esau wept aloud"
KJV: "And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept"
Also in Gen. 21:16
וַתִּשָּׂא אֶת קֹלָהּ וַתֵּבְךְּ
Also in Ps. 93:3
נָשְׂאוּ נְהָרוֹת קוֹלָם
KJV: "the floods have lifted up their voice"
Hence also שאוֹן and תשוּאה
Closely related to נשא is נסע 'carried himself away', as in Gen. 33:17
וְיַעֲקֹב נָסַע סֻכֹּתָה
KJV: "And Jacob journeyed to Succoth"
NIV: "Jacob, however, went to Sukkoth"
Also in Nu. 11:31
וְרוּחַ נָסַע מֵאֵת יהוה
KJV: "And there went forth a wind from the Lord"
The wind went forth.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: H4853 and H7891

Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:05 pm
by Isaac Fried
Closely related to נשא is also נשה, 'pull away, take away, carry away, remove, lose, deprive', as in Lamentations 3:17
וַתִּזְנַח מִשָּׁלוֹם נַפְשִׁי נָשִׁיתִי טוֹבָה
KJV: "And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity"
From it, נֹּשֶׁה, 'creditor, impounder, lifter, נוֹשֵׂא', as in 2Kings 4:1
הַנֹּשֶׁה בָּא לָקַחַת אֶת שְׁנֵי יְלָדַי לוֹ לַעֲבָדִים
NIV: "But now his creditor is coming to take my two boys as his slaves"
Also נשיה, 'far removed', as in Ps. 88:13(12)
הֲיִוָּדַע בַּחֹשֶׁךְ פִּלְאֶךָ וְצִדְקָתְךָ בְּאֶרֶץ נְשִׁיָּה
KJV: "Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
NIV: "Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?"
Also נזה, 'spray, sprinkle, scatter, (spit) spatter', as in 2Kings 9:33
וַיִּז מִדָּמָהּ אֶל הַקִּיר
NIV: "and some of her blood spattered the wall"
KJV: "and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall"

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: H4853 and H7891

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:28 am
by SteveMiller
H4853 masha meaning burden or oracle, I doubt means "music" as most translate it here and in v22.
H7891 shir meaning sing, does not share a root with the above.
But music and divine inspiration go together as in 2Ki 3:15 and in many psalms.

Here is John Goldingay's translation of these 2 verses:
22 Kenanyahu, the Levite's official,
with prophecy, to exercise discipline with prophecy because he was discerning:
...
27 ... and the singers, and Kenanyah the singers' prophetic officer ...