IPA symbols for practico and van pelt

[ralph]

So when it comes to the Biblical era, I think that it is very hard to make a statement.

well, I understand that academics don't hold to the idea of any switch from w to v in biblical times..

But would you avoid even making the statement that it was definitely w in biblical times?

So I think that When speaking about the pronunciation of the 6th letter as V, I think it is better to focus on the post-biblical era.

Aramaic, and also in the Samaritan text.
{switching them, and you give examples}

okay..

and you look at the number of switches too..

So the masoretic text has two.. Gav and Parbar.

You mention "Three examples in the Samaritan text"

And re Kaufmann manuscript you mention it as a good indicator of spelling in the Mishnaic era.

The only switch i'm aware of in the Kaufmann manuscript is Yavneh.. Does it have other examples?

You write "In the texts that are after the biblical era, there are more switches in more words, and even in the same sentence, the same word is written differently."

This sounds like good evidence because from what you've written it sounds like some may dismiss just a text with one or two switches within the entire text..

What texts are there with multiple within a sentence and for the same word?

one of the things that supports the loyalty of the Mishnaic manuscripts (as Kaufmann) is the fact that there are words that come in different forms than the ones in the bible. And then these Mishnaic forms are found elsewhere (other 2nd temple authentic texts, or in archeology, and also in Greek translation that support it (in this cases it is more about the vowels).
And so, if the manuscript would write in an artificial way, then it would fit the Biblical fashion. But instead, it shows that it was loyal to the natural way that was alive back then.

interesting, thanks.

Can you expand on "2nd temple authentic texts, or in archeology"

e.g. what archaeological finds and what 2nd temple authentic texts?

And you mention

" Saadia Gaon, in his grammar book, writes about the Shewa (in Hebrew: שוא) that "~some of the people in Iraq heard the pronunciation from the people in Israel, and mistakenly thought the W as V, and pronounced it as "Sheva~".

Basically what he's saying is that the people of Israel pronounced the vowel name as "Sheva", and the people in Iraq heard it from them, and thought that the sound is V. And so since they (the people in Iraq) pronounced the 6th letter as W, they understood that the vowel name that they heard (Sheva) is written with letter ב (since their 6th letter was only W), and so they pronounced it as שבא (and this spelling is found also in old texts).
I guess that it was also made sense to them since it was accepted as a "resting vowel" (and the root can fit).
But Saadia Gaon was against that, and his view was that the 6th letter should be pronounced as W, and he wrote only the form of שוא in all of his texts.

That shows that in his time, the 6th letter was pronounced as V in Israel (and there are more books that say that also).
But notice that his time is way after the Mishnaic time.

You write "and there are more books that say that also"


What other books? Thanks

[Jason Hare]

Your dig at them is inaccurate on many levels, and totally not relevant to the question.

I wasn't taking a dig at anyone. Could you please stop making this accusation? I've already explained what I meant.

[ralph]

...

As to your question of where the idea that there's an "a" like "am" comes from.

Note- This post and some of them, assume you are right that no communities and at no time in history has Patach been pronounced like the "a" in cat. We can go with that idea. I am not suggesting otherwise unless I run into some good evidence.. So we can agree on that, that "a" like "fat"/"cat"/"bat", is wrong. We can agree on that particularly for the points I am making here.

Were you aware that some classic grammar books (oddly) have that - "a" as cat?

For example the ones I listed.

e.g. as I said -

Davidson's grammar has it the wrong way, ON page 15 it has Kamatz right ("calf") but it has patach wrong ("fat")

Seow's original grammar has it wrong , it says Patach is like "am", (but it has kamatz-gadol right, "father"). (Though his revised one fixes that and has it like the "a" in "aunt")

Not only the 3rd edition of Davidson has the issue The 27th edition , Davidson's Introductory Hebrew Grammar by James D Martin, also has the issue. See page 15, it says Patah, as "hat".

You like Lambdin, and while he doesn't name "patach", he does use the word "that" one of the 'a' sounds, in his system of transcription. What do you think of that?

And one should also acknowledge the oddness of, in modern pronunciation and sephardi pronunciation, having two different diacritical marks (patach and kamatz) where when it's kamatz gadol, which is most of kamatzs, they are the same sound. Or a kamatz mark with two sounds.. I understand that some think it to be down to a mismatch between the system of pronunciation and the selected system of diacritical marks. And the Ashkenazi way of patach kamatz and cholam-like o in boat, might match better.

I wonder if Yemenites do Patach the same as in modern hebrew.. In which case, if we take the ashkenazi cholam of 'o' in boat(as mentioned in siddur sfat yisrael).. Then the patach kamatz and cholam are the same for yemenites and ashkenazim.

[Jason Hare]

Were you aware that some classic grammar books (oddly) have that - "a" as cat?

Yes, I'm aware.

I wonder if Yemenites do Patach the same as in modern hebrew.. In which case, if we take the ashkenazi cholam of 'o' in boat(as mentioned in siddur sfat yisrael).. Then the patach kamatz and cholam are the same for yemenites and ashkenazim.

Yemenites pronounce segol and pataḥ alike (as /ɑ/). Kamats sounds like /ɔ/ for them.

You like Lambdin, and while he doesn't name "patach", he does use the word "that" one of the 'a' sounds, in his system of transcription. What do you think of that?

I don't actually have a copy of Lambdin's grammar. I've never read or seen it. I learned from Seow's grammar, who was a student of Lambdin's (if I recall correctly) and was attempting to clarify his grammar. My original Hebrew professor, Dr. Larry Pechawer, studied for his PhD in Inscriptional Aramaic at Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, and he used the Israeli pronunciation. I was in his first class as he began to teach at Ozark Christian College as he replaced Dr. Wilbur Fields in his position as the teacher of biblical Hebrew. Dr. Fields used Weingreen as his teaching grammar for the many years that he taught at OCC, and Dr. Pechawer changed the text to Seow's textbook. I'm glad he did so. The focus on morphology and the linguistic history of Hebrew (theoretical forms and such) gave me a strong background in how to approach the language analytically. I was lucky that I began my studies at that time (Fall 1999) under Dr. Pechawer.

Jason

[ralph]

In reference to some classical hebrew grammars have patach as "a" as in cat/apple.. You say

Yes, I'm aware.

There was never a time in the history of the language (as far I'm aware) in which pataḥ sounded like the a in "apple." I'm not sure why seminaries teach that in America.

It's obviously because that's what some classical hebrew grammars have. And they teach from them.

Now you could ask, Why do those classical hebrew grammars have that, that would be a better question than asking that question of a single book and asking why they do. Or wondering why some seminaries do, when many of the classical hebrew grammars they teach from do, so that's clearly why those seminaries do.

Also, I heard from a Rabbi in the USA, and recently verified with him, that he thinks the Syrian Jewish community pronounce Patach like the "a" in cat. He says that because he has heard them pronounce the name of their school Magen David. Like that. But he hasn't heard Patach pronounced like "cat" in other cities, so he thought it seems like the Syrian community but not others. (I'd like to verify that with some members of the Syrian Jewish community but haven't been able to yet)

I don't actually have a copy of Lambdin's grammar. I've never read or seen it. I learned from Seow's grammar, who was a student of Lambdin's

Professor Seow's view(which might be universal among academics), is that historically it was as ‘fat,’ but Jews have long pronounced it as in “car.”.

Were you aware that there was a difference re the Patach, between the earlier printings of his Seow's grammar, and the revised edition?

Which version of Seow's grammar did you learn from?

I heard that the Septuagint transliteration of hebrew bible placenames may give some indication of vowels or consonants.. or something like that.. And IIRC you are familiar with Greek. What do you think about that and What does that do with Patach?

[Jason Hare]

Were you aware that there was a difference re the Patach, between the earlier printings of his Seow's grammar, and the revised edition?

Which version of Seow's grammar did you learn from?

I wasn't aware of that until you mentioned it in the previous post. We used the revised edition, which came out in 1995.

I heard that the Septuagint transliteration of hebrew bible placenames may give some indication of vowels or consonants.. or something like that.. And IIRC you are familiar with Greek. What do you think about that and What does that do with Patach?

Since there is no /æ/ sound in Greek either, there's no indication. Greek only has /ɑ/ (for alpha ["a" in "father"]) and /ɛ/ (for epsilon and the digraph alpha-iota ["e" in "wet"]). It may have been that alpha-iota was pronounced as /ɑɪ/ in classical times, but it was /ɛ/ in the Koine period (and up until today). It doesn't really have any influence on how we could reconstruct pronunciations from the period in terms of the presence of lack of /æ/ ("a" in "cat").

Jason