qametz Chatuph & chateph qamets

[SteveMiller]

Are the sounds for the Chateph Qamets and Qamets Chatuph correct in this chart?
It says "o" as in yellow.
https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Gramm ... owels.html

What is the purpose of a Qamets Chatuph since it looks identical to a regular Qamets?

What is the difference in sound between an "ah" sound and a short "o" sound?

Thanks.

[Glenn Dean]

I sure hope someone comes along and says that chart is incorrect, because I've always been pronouncing the hateph qamets as an "a" sound - in Pratico & Pelt they indicate to pronounce the hateph qamets as the "a" sound you hear in the word "commit" (pronounced "ca - mit" not "co - mit").

On the qamets versus hatuf qamets, I just wanted to make a short comment - I was just listening to a recording of 1 Kings 17:22 where we see the word וַתָּ֧שָׁב (note the darga accent mark under the taw) - being the final syllable is closed-unaccented, it requires a short vowel, so the qamets isn't a qamets but rather a "hatuf qamets". So the pronunciation is "va - ta - shov" (so there is a very distinct sound difference between qamets and hatuf qamets)

Glenn

[SteveMiller]

thanks Glenn!

[Jason Hare]

It actually is "o" and sounds like cholam.

In the example that Glenn gave, the first kamats is long and the second is short. It is about the position within the word.

Rule: When a syllable is unstressed, closed syllables will take short vowels, and open syllables will take long vowels. There is no rule for accented syllables, though they tend to take long vowels most of the time.

Thus, וַתָּ֫שָׁב is three syllables: vat|tā́|šoḇ. The first syllable is closed and unstressed (it has short pataḥ). The second syllable open and stressed (and has long qamats). The final syllable is closed and unstressed (it has short ḥataf kamats).

Ḥataf kamats sounds the same as ḥolam. It is the o in "hope."

[SteveMiller]

thanks Jason! I take it that both the Chateph Qamets (qamets with sheva in front) and qamets chatuph sound like an "o" as in "hope".

[Jason Hare]

thanks Jason! I take it that both the Chateph Qamets (qamets with sheva in front) and qamets chatuph sound like an "o" as in "hope".

Correct. They sound the same as ḥolam. Compare: קֹ֫דֶשׁ qṓḏeš "holiness," קָדְשִׁי qoḏšî "my holiness," and קֳדָשִׁים qŏḏāšîm "holinesses ('holy things')."

[Jemoh66]

This seems to be the result of a modern ear unable to distinguish the subtlety of sound between to types of o vowel sounds. Else, why would the Masoretes have used the symbol for a qametz. My French ear knows the difference between the o of קָדְשִׁי and the o of קֹ֫דֶשׁ.

[SteveMiller]

Thanks Jason and Jonathan.

[Jason Hare]

This seems to be the result of a modern ear unable to distinguish the subtlety of sound between to types of o vowel sounds. Else, why would the Masoretes have used the symbol for a qametz. My French ear knows the difference between the o of קָדְשִׁי and the o of קֹ֫דֶשׁ.

The Masoretes apparently pronounced kamats the same in all situations, whether long or short. We don't know what that sound was. The Jewish tradition is to distinguish between long (pronounced like pataḥ) and short (pronounced like ḥolam). I don't know what French could have to do with it.

[ralph]

The Jewish tradition is to distinguish between long (pronounced like pataḥ) and short (pronounced like ḥolam). I don't know what French could have to do with it.

Not exactly.

Sephardi tradition is to distinguish between two types of Kamatz vowel both marked the same way.

Ashkenazi doesn't make two kamatz vowels.

Yemeni might not either. (though not 100% sure re Yemeni).