I could just as meaningfully written "monkeys."Isaac Fried wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:44 pm Jason emphatically declaresThis is interesting. Are you suggesting, Jason, that 'bull' is בעל? Otherwise, where did you get the cows?Yes, it's goats. Goats and cows. Of course.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
majesty vs irregularity?
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- Jason Hare
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
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- Jason Hare
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
:sigh:
Please refer to ducky's comment on this in the other thread. Why are we talking across threads with this topic? If you want to have a conversation about something, please refrain from opening three threads on the same question.
To be clear: Biblical Hebrew and modern Hebrew are not different languages. They are different time periods of the same language. בעלים is clearly used the same in the Bible as how I mentioned it. You have to look for words' suffixes, too. Not just the absolute (free) form of the word. When I write בעלים, I assume that anyone who looks for the term will also search for בעליו and בעליה (and all the other forms with suffixes). That's how Hebrew works.
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
Jason says
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
It gets wittier and funnier by the hour. Now I will still more delightfully write "zebras".I could just as meaningfully written "monkeys."
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
Well I don't try to read into what people are saying. Likewise better if you don't try to read into what I am saying.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:52 am When I write בעלים, I assume that anyone who looks for the term will also search for בעליו and בעליה (and all the other forms with suffixes)
if you say בעלים is there, I assume you mean that.
But next time i'll know that when you say בעלים you mean not necessarily בעלים or(as in this case), not בעלים at all, but other forms of the word.
Ralph Zak
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
When I talk about the word כסף, I figure it's obvious to everyone that I'm talking about it when it's in construct, when it's in the absolute state, when it's got a suffix, when it's singular, when it's plural. When we talk about a WORD, we talk about all the forms that word might appear in (unless we specify otherwise). I never said "the form בעלים to the exclusion of all of its various functions within a sentence." In fact, that would be odd. I think this is a basic assumption that we all make when we talk about words. I was obviously talking about the plural of בעל, but I wasn't talking about it only in the absolute form. I never made that contention.
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ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
When people study basic hebrew, then if they were asked for example, to say "I go", it'd be "Ani Holech". Not Ani Holchim. Holchim would be seen as the wrong word, and a different word to Holech. Different letters too, though the same root.Jason Hare wrote: ....
Not a perfect analogy, but my point is that when you said one form of the word, I didn't expect you meant another form of the word.
And that's fine.
I hope you are tolerant to the idea that I might think of two forms of a word as being a different word(though with the same root). Just as I am tolerant to the idea that you might say one form of a word and mean another.
Now I know you wanted to say a form of plural of the root Baal. (And not actually the form you wrote).
As I said. The important thing is "next time i'll know that when you say בעלים you mean not necessarily בעלים or(as in this case), not בעלים at all, but other forms of the word."
Ralph Zak
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
No. הולך and מתהלך are two different words with the same root. הולך and הולכים are the same word. אתה הולכים is a grammatical mistake of concord (agreement). It isn't a lexical mistake (using the wrong word). If you look up all of the instances of ללכת (which is normally referred to as הלך among those who had seminary training), you will look for הלך הלכתי הלכה אלך ילך הולך etc. It's all the same word, like "eat" is the same word as "eats" in English.
In the end, it doesn't matter. I'd totally like to move on from this nonsense.
In the end, it doesn't matter. I'd totally like to move on from this nonsense.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
for the sake of moving on from this discussion about what is a word, let's agree to disagree about that statement of yours? and I will bear in mind that when you speak of words it means something slightly different to when I do.Jason Hare wrote:
like "eat" is the same word as "eats" in English.
Ralph Zak
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
I would hate to think that people don't agree on what a word is, though. That's just odd.ralph wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:55 pmfor the sake of moving on from this discussion about what is a word, let's agree to disagree about that statement of yours? and I will bear in mind that when you speak of words it means something slightly different to when I do.Jason Hare wrote:
like "eat" is the same word as "eats" in English.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
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ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?
What I’ve noticed is that some words, the plural refers to status or state—e.g. ילדים used for the state of being a youth, זקנים the state of being old, מגורים the state of being a sojourner, מותים the state of being dead, and so forth.
I hadn’t considered the nouns אדנים or אלהים, but are these examples where the plural is used not only to refer to the individual, but also to his status?
On another note, the name ירושלם was still pronounced in backwards Galilee as “Yerosoluma” as late as the first century, while it was pronounced as “Yerusalem” in Jerusalem itself as well as the diaspora. It wasn’t dual. I mention “backwards Galilee” as a place more likely to retain older pronunciations.
Karl W. Randolph.
I hadn’t considered the nouns אדנים or אלהים, but are these examples where the plural is used not only to refer to the individual, but also to his status?
On another note, the name ירושלם was still pronounced in backwards Galilee as “Yerosoluma” as late as the first century, while it was pronounced as “Yerusalem” in Jerusalem itself as well as the diaspora. It wasn’t dual. I mention “backwards Galilee” as a place more likely to retain older pronunciations.
Karl W. Randolph.