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Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:33 pm
by Glenn Dean
Hi:
Without looking at any translation, nor grammar book, here's my translation of 1 Kings 19:2.
וַתִּשְׁלַ֤ח אִיזֶ֙בֶל֙ מַלְאָ֔ךְ אֶל־אֵלִיָּ֖הוּ לֵאמֹ֑ר כֹּֽה־יַעֲשׂ֤וּן אֱלֹהִים֙ וְכֹ֣ה יוֹסִפ֔וּן כִּֽי־כָעֵ֤ת מָחָר֙ אָשִׂ֣ים אֶֽת־נַפְשְׁךָ֔ כְּנֶ֖פֶשׁ אַחַ֥ד מֵהֶֽם
"And Jezebel sent out a messenger to Elijah to say:
'Thus the gods will create and thus (the gods) will add,
for as the time of tomorrow I will place your soul as the soul after from them' "
So, it sounds like Jezebel is saying, in terms of the gods, that they can do whatever they want, i.e. "create and add"
As far as Elijah, it sounds like she is saying "this time tomorrow, your soul will 'join' the souls of the prophets you killed
The help I'm asking for, is as you look at my translation, what would be something you would glean from the Hebrew and identify pieces that I clearly missed.
Glenn
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:34 pm
by ducky
Hi Glenn,
She actually curses herself (a conditional curse).
This type of usage is like she is saying:
Thus the gods will bring upon me (a curse), And bring upon me more than that [if I will /not/ do this thing]
The [second part] of the conditional curse is not written, and this swear is given only by its beginning.
(Thus the gods will bring upon me...)
But then, after the conditional curse was said (only in its first part)
She said what she is going to do - and that is to kill him.
And so, you could connect the two parts and translate it with the conditional word "if".
Thus the gods will "curse" [me] and thus will bring more if this time tomorrow I will *not* make your soul as the soul of one of them
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:25 pm
by Jason Hare
David is exactly right. She's calling a curse upon herself if she doesn't manage to kill Elijah by the next day.
Notice that עשה doesn't mean "create." What's missing is "to me." "May the Gods do [this terrible to me] and do more [terrible things to me] if I do not do x."
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:35 pm
by Glenn Dean
thanxs Ducky! I totally missed that this was a curse!
So you're treating the word יַעֲשׂ֤וּן as a "jussive"? Basically "may the gods do (to me) ....".
What "clue" was there that this was a jussive??
Glenn
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:37 pm
by Glenn Dean
Thanxs Jason! I see I also didn't translate כִי properly. I translated it as "for", but it has the meaning "if".
Glenn
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:33 am
by ducky
Glenn Dean wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:35 pm
thanxs Ducky! I totally missed that this was a curse!
So you're treating the word
יַעֲשׂ֤וּן as a "jussive"? Basically "may the gods do (to me) ....".
What "clue" was there that this was a jussive??
Glenn
I didn't treat it as Jussive.
You are quoting Jason in this case.
But I don't think that he meant that יעשון is jussive. He just wrote it as a form of a request that this and that would happen to her if she doesn't...
In this case, I think that there is no need to use the "may" since her request comes as a statement (and the יעשון is indicative).
Glenn Dean wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:37 pm
Thanxs Jason! I see I also didn't translate
כִי properly. I translated it as "for", but it has the meaning "if".
Glenn
The כי is not really "if".
It is just translated that way to connect the curse with the condition.
Notice, that when the "if" is written, then the second part is translated in a negative way.
I mean, in the text, the second part of the verse says: "I will..."
But since the English translation uses "if" - then now the second part is: "I will not".
It is not that you had a problem with the translation or the understanding. It is just that you picked a "tricky" verse.
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:04 am
by Glenn Dean
Thanxs Ducky for the comments!
Yes, this verse really "threw me" - I've translated all of Ch17 and Ch18, and had trouble with half the verses, but then I hit 19:2 and I hadn't had this much trouble. It seems, though, that in the last 6 verses, three have been pretty tricky, with 18:43, 18:44, and 19:2 being tricky (to me atleast).
If I could ask another question about the tail-end of the verse, the phrase אַחַ֥ד מֵהֶֽם, the word אַחַ֥ד is in construct? so the translation is "one from them". If so, how is the final part of the verse translated - is it "I will set your soul as a soul 'one from them' ". That sounds very awkward to me - maybe repeat the word "as/like" a second time - "I will set your soul as a soul 'like one of them' "
Glenn
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:14 am
by Glenn Dean
BTW, I can't wait to continue translating the rest of Ch19 to find out what happens to Jezebel (since I know that Elijah is not killed 'by tomorrow'). Since Elijah isn't killed, then something terrible is suppose to happen to her!!! (but this assumes Baal is real, but since Baal isn't real, most likely nothing will happen to her).
I'm assuming Jezebel was "cursing herself" to Baal? Eventhough, according to 19:1, Ahab told her ALL that happened (which, to me, includes Baal isn't real)
Glenn
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:23 pm
by Jemoh66
ducky wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:33 am
Glenn Dean wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:35 pm
thanxs Ducky! I totally missed that this was a curse!
So you're treating the word
יַעֲשׂ֤וּן as a "jussive"? Basically "may the gods do (to me) ....".
What "clue" was there that this was a jussive??
Glenn
I didn't treat it as Jussive.
You are quoting Jason in this case.
But I don't think that he meant that יעשון is jussive. He just wrote it as a form of a request that this and that would happen to her if she doesn't...
In this case, I think that there is no need to use the "may" since her request comes as a statement (and the יעשון is indicative).
Glenn Dean wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:37 pm
Thanxs Jason! I see I also didn't translate
כִי properly. I translated it as "for", but it has the meaning "if".
Glenn
The כי is not really "if".
It is just translated that way to connect the curse with the condition.
Notice, that when the "if" is written, then the second part is translated in a negative way.
I mean, in the text, the second part of the verse says: "I will..."
But since the English translation uses "if" - then now the second part is: "I will not".
It is not that you had a problem with the translation or the understanding. It is just that you picked a "tricky" verse.
I disagree, it’s most definitely a jussive. When I come upon a
yiqtol form I always think jussive and/or subjunctive first, indicative second.
As for the
כי, I agree, it doesn’t actually mean if
. The construct is the same when Ruth takes an oath before Naomi.
כה יעשה יהוה לי וכה יסיף כי המות יפריד ביני ובינך:.
Notice, in Ruth’s oath there is an original
כי following the imperative phrase
אַל־תִּפְגְּעִי־בִ֔י לְעָזְבֵ֖ךְ לָשׁ֣וּב מֵאַחֲרָ֑יִךְ.
כִּ֠י אֶל־אֲשֶׁ֨ר תֵּלְכִ֜י אֵלֵ֗ךְ וּבַאֲשֶׁ֤ר תָּלִ֙ינִי֙ אָלִ֔ין עַמֵּ֣ךְ עַמִּ֔י וֵאלֹהַ֖יִךְ אֱלֹהָֽי׃
As far as I’m concerned one could read everything that follows that first
כִּ֠י a subjunctive or jussive anticipating the oath formula
כֹּה֩ יַעֲשֶׂ֨ה יְהוָ֥ה לִי֙ וְכֹ֣ה יֹסִ֔יף כִּ֣י הַמָּ֔וֶת יַפְרִ֖יד בֵּינִ֥י וּבֵינֵֽךְ.
Literally,
that wherever you should go I should go etc...
Re: Help me translate 1 Kings 19:2
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:22 pm
by ducky
Hi Glenn,
It is very nice to hear about your reading process.
Glenn Dean wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:04 am
אַחַ֥ד מֵהֶֽם, the word
אַחַ֥ד is in construct? so the translation is "one from them". If so, how is the final part of the verse translated - is it "I will set your soul as a soul 'one from them' ". That sounds very awkward to me - maybe repeat the word "as/like" a second time - "I will set your soul as a soul 'like one of them' "
The word אחד comes here in a construct form (it happens sometimes even though (I don't see that) there is a reason for that - You can see more אחד מהם in other verses).
the אחד מהם - is like saying in English "one of them"
As for the כנפש אחד מהם
The word נפש also comes as a construct.
And it is like "like the soul of one of them"