Isaiah 22:5 breaking the wall Cry to the mountain

[Chris Watts]

כִּי יוֹם מְהוּמָה וּמְבוּסָה וּמְבוּכָה לַאדֹנָי יְהוִה צְבָאוֹת בְּגֵיא חִזָּיוֹן מְקַרְקַר קִר וְשׁוֹעַ אֶל־הָהָר

The question concerns only the second half of this sentence, namely, as I translate it: "of breaking down a wall and a cry to the mountain". The word translated as "Cry" is pointed to indicate 'Wealth, riches', Not to make a cry for help? A bit odd?

Secondly, out of curiosity, would it be fair to understand this word: מְקַרְקַר as indicating a sort of digging down to the foundation which results in a wall's collapse, rather than a literal breaking it with blunt force.

Chris Watts

[ducky]

Hi Chris,

This part also has a few ways to understand it.

as for your version...
check the dictionary for the root שוע in verbs
מבטן שאול שועתי שמעת קולי
אל אל ישועו
and more.

Or the noun שוע and שועה

****
As for מקרקר
according to the text, (also in Num.) it seems that it talks about breaking down.

your idea is nice since the root קור is about digging. And therefore, you may say that the definition of breaking down is an evolution of the digging.
But I don't know.
Because it could be that it is based on the word קיר=wall.
As the verb is to tear the wall (like the verb שרש is to root out the (noun) שרש=root.

Or the מקרקר is the "brother" of מערער (like in Jer. 51:58).
(since the ק=ע is some accents).
And even though the root of ערר is about "bear", you can see that ערער is about destroying (so sometimes the expanded verbs can take a specific definition which is not like the root's basic one).

[Chris Watts]

Hi Chris,

This part also has a few ways to understand it.

as for your version...
check the dictionary for the root שוע in verbs
מבטן שאול שועתי שמעת קולי
אל אל ישועו
and more.

Or the noun שוע and שועה

Hallo David, I originally checked the root and variations before posting. I double checked both the lexicon and my dictionary. Here is a screen shot of my printed edition. It explains my head scratching. Especially look at number 3, where it uses the abbreviation : " i q ", That's a seghol and a patach by the way due to the illegibility of the vowel pointing.
Chris watts

[Jason Hare]

Just in passing, I will note that HALOT draws a line between Ugaritic and the phrase מְקַרְקֵר קִר, that it might be "to shout a shout" and lead directly into שׁוֹעַ, making both קִר and שׁוֹעַ objects of the participle מְקַרְקֵר. This is confirmed by the other cognate languages mentioned there in the lexicon. It is certainly a possibility that it is related to "wall" and such, but it's also possible that it has to do with shouting or crying out to the mountain that help will come.

What do you think?

krkr-kr.jpg

[Chris Watts]

Just in passing, I will note that HALOT draws a line between Ugaritic and the phrase מְקַרְקֵר קִר, that it might be "to shout a shout" and lead directly into שׁוֹעַ, making both קִר and שׁוֹעַ objects of the participle מְקַרְקֵר. This is confirmed by the other cognate languages mentioned there in the lexicon. It is certainly a possibility that it is related to "wall" and such, but it's also possible that it has to do with shouting or crying out to the mountain that help will come.

What do you think?

krkr-kr.jpg

Hallo Jason, thankyou. I actually began this process from reading Balaam's blessing in numbers and turned to Isaiah for insight. Yes, Gesenius is silent on this. I am glad no one heard me but I sat here and recited it very quickly many times - mkarkarkar shoa hahar - in the hope of hearing its flow and poetic sounds. Yep it does sound a bit like a crow sqwarking as it flies over your head at 20 Mph. (try it it's fun) and you get to feel stupid as well.

I think that you are right. Reading Numbers 24:14 thus:וְקַרְקַר כָּל־בְּנֵי־שֵׁת is something I have also been busy with, and that word "SHeT" is not, I believe, referring to Adam's son and all the people who are alive and are gone and will yet be born, but to the word for 'Noise' IE a tumult, rage even, and ties in nicely with Esther and the whole ethos of scripture about the noise and rage that the heathen make against the people Israel. That they never stop with all their clamourous noises. That God will destroy the children of all this noise is how I read this.

So maybe in the valley of vision the theme of confusion coming from all the disturbance/noise/commotion (This is how is how I translate מְהוּמָה); Both here in Isaiah and in Numbers appear to be full of 'Noise'. Instead of prayer for God's help from Sennecherib in Isaiah they put up human defences and then party on their house tops? (Verse 2).

Summary then: Ambiguity could be the key to the meaning? Assignng just one translation destroys the meaning? Shouting a shout and a cry to the mountain with that obvious meaning of digging under the foundation of the wall and letting it fall - both ideas come together and complete the intended message?

Chris watts

[ducky]

Hallo David, I originally checked the root and variations before posting. I double checked both the lexicon and my dictionary. Here is a screen shot of my printed edition. It explains my head scratching. Especially look at number 3, where it uses the abbreviation : " i q ", That's a seghol and a patach by the way due to the illegibility of the vowel pointing.
Chris watts

Hi Chris,

The word that you see (number 3) is the one that you search for.
I guess he writes the שוע with Segol as a synonym to the שוע with Holam.
The שוע with Segol has an entry of itself (above) and the meaning is the same.
So it wants to tell you that the entry of שוע with Holam has the same meaning as the entry שוע with Segol above.

[ducky]

Just in passing, I will note that HALOT draws a line between Ugaritic and the phrase מְקַרְקֵר קִר, that it might be "to shout a shout" and lead directly into שׁוֹעַ, making both קִר and שׁוֹעַ objects of the participle מְקַרְקֵר. This is confirmed by the other cognate languages mentioned there in the lexicon. It is certainly a possibility that it is related to "wall" and such, but it's also possible that it has to do with shouting or crying out to the mountain that help will come.

What do you think?

krkr-kr.jpg

Hi Jason,

It is also a possibility.
The מקרקר as "sound-making" is also a Mishnaic Hebrew.
And basically, it is an Onomatopoeia word.

So according to this way, it is the people of Israel who shout and cry out to the mount.

****
Some see it as names of places
Kir (also mentioned in the next verse)
Shoa (mentioned in Ezekiel)
And with that, it is Kir and Shoa that shout

[ducky]

Hallo Jason, thankyou. I actually began this process from reading Balaam's blessing in numbers and turned to Isaiah for insight. Yes, Gesenius is silent on this. I am glad no one heard me but I sat here and recited it very quickly many times - mkarkarkar shoa hahar - in the hope of hearing its flow and poetic sounds. Yep it does sound a bit like a crow sqwarking as it flies over your head at 20 Mph. (try it it's fun) and you get to feel stupid as well.

I think that you are right. Reading Numbers 24:14 thus:וְקַרְקַר כָּל־בְּנֵי־שֵׁת is something I have also been busy with, and that word "SHeT" is not, I believe, referring to Adam's son and all the people who are alive and are gone and will yet be born, but to the word for 'Noise' IE a tumult, rage even, and ties in nicely with Esther and the whole ethos of scripture about the noise and rage that the heathen make against the people Israel. That they never stop with all their clamourous noises. That God will destroy the children of all this noise is how I read this.

So maybe in the valley of vision the theme of confusion coming from all the disturbance/noise/commotion (This is how is how I translate מְהוּמָה); Both here in Isaiah and in Numbers appear to be full of 'Noise'. Instead of prayer for God's help from Sennecherib in Isaiah they put up human defences and then party on their house tops? (Verse 2).

Summary then: Ambiguity could be the key to the meaning? Assignng just one translation destroys the meaning? Shouting a shout and a cry to the mountain with that obvious meaning of digging under the foundation of the wall and letting it fall - both ideas come together and complete the intended message?

Chris watts

Hi Chris, what you're saying about שת in Num. refers to noise was already said by SHaDaL. Even though, according to that, the קרקר in this verse would not mean noise.

Jer. 48:45 writes a similar verse (but קדקד instead קרקר)
and it is said there פאת מואב / בני שאון
And num. writes פאת מואב / בני שת

So if we look at that we can compare שת to שאון as "noise".
And the שת would be like the שאת in Lame. 3:47.

[Chris Watts]

David wrote : So it wants to tell you that the entry of שוע with Holam has the same meaning as the entry שוע with Segol above.

Yes I get that David, my query was rather about the different vowel pointing (a different pronounciation for the hearers that is) in other words swapping the pronounciation around yet maintainig the same meaning seems odd to me, I have never come accross this yet in Hebrew. It is merely a curiosity.

As for your comment above:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Jer. 48:45 writes a similar verse (but קדקד instead קרקר)
and it is said there פאת מואב / בני שאון
And num. writes פאת מואב / בני שת

So if we look at that we can compare שת to שאון as "noise".
And the שת would be like the שאת in Lame. 3:47.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree, that is how I came to the same conclusion. Interesting.



chris watts

[ducky]

The changing of vowels is not a big matter
you can see עולה as Avla, and as Ola.

you have מוסר-musar
but in Job, you see also mosar

**
And bsically, the שוע with Segol and the שוע with Holam are different forms.