Isaiah 18:1

[Chris Watts]

צִלְצַ֣ל

Could someone help me to understand the idea in hebrew thought behind doubling a noun as in the above word from verse 1 of Isaiah 18. I have come across other words like this but unfortunately I can not remember any. That is of course, unless this is a noun formed from a root צִלל.

Of course, the idea of a shadow is conveyed, but not meant otherwise we would have just צִל, the idea of a whirring buzzing noise is conveyed also, so my immediate thought is that the ambiguity is the correct meaning, ie, both thoughts are conveyed. I accept the idea of insects, but due to the obscure nature of the context and the fact that if locusts were meant or the tse tse fly were intended, there would have been more directness and no need to be so cryptic. And then of course we have in Job 40:31 (41:7 in English) 'Spears' This throws a spanner in the works, to get the idea of whirring and buzzing from a spear, why not use the word Spear itself for which there are a couple of words to choose from? A little mysterious for me.

What are your thoughts please?

Chris watts

[Jason Hare]

צִלְצַ֣ל

Could someone help me to understand the idea in hebrew thought behind doubling a noun as in the above word from verse 1 of Isaiah 18. I have come across other words like this but unfortunately I can not remember any. That is of course, unless this is a noun formed from a root צִלל.

Of course, the idea of a shadow is conveyed, but not meant otherwise we would have just צִל, the idea of a whirring buzzing noise is conveyed also, so my immediate thought is that the ambiguity is the correct meaning, ie, both thoughts are conveyed. I accept the idea of insects, but due to the obscure nature of the context and the fact that if locusts were meant or the tse tse fly were intended, there would have been more directness and no need to be so cryptic. And then of course we have in Job 40:31 (41:7 in English) 'Spears' This throws a spanner in the works, to get the idea of whirring and buzzing from a spear, why not use the word Spear itself for which there are a couple of words to choose from? A little mysterious for me.

What are your thoughts please?

Chris watts

Have you considered other PLPL roots?

[Jason Hare]

§59.b
3) The form pilpẹl with repetition of the first and last consonants occurs in ע״ו verbs in which it is properly a pilpẹl, and in ע״ע verbs in which it is properly piʿpẹʿ. In many cases it is difficult to choose between these two classes of verbs. The passive is pulpa̧l and the reflexive hiṯpa̧lpẹl. Examples: גִּלְגֵּל to roll (tr.); הִתְגַּלְגֵּל to roll (intr.) (from √גלל); טִלְטֵל to throw (from √טול); the frequent כִּלְכֵּל to sustain somebody, passive כָּלְכַּל (prob. from √כיל); הִתְמַהְמַהּ to hesitate (root?)².

[Footnote] 2. Most verbs of this group as well as of the group in the following paragraph showing repetition of two consonants signify repetition of an action, often in quick succession. See Eitan 1920–21: 174–77 and Yannay 1974: 71–95.

Paul Joüon and T. Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2006), 157.

[Jason Hare]

Other pilpel/piʿpeʿ verbs in the biblical corpus:

לְגַלְגֵּל from √גלל
לְזַעְזֵעַ from √זוע
לְזַפְזֵף from √זרף
לְחַרְחֵר from √חרר
לְטַאְטֵא from √טאטא (notice the aleph has sheva!)
לְטַלְטֵל from √טול
לְכַלְכֵּל from √כול
לְכַרְכֵּר from √כרר
לְלַעְלֵעַ from √לעע
לְנַעְנֵעַ from √נוע
לְסַכְסֵךְ from √סוך
לְסַלְסֵל from √סלל
לְלַעְלֵעַ from √לעע
לְעַרְעֵר from √עור or √עיר or √ערר (second root)
לְפַצְפֵּץ from √פצץ
לְפַרְפֵּר from √פרר
לְצַפְצֵף from √צפף
לְקַלְקֵל from √קלל
לְשַׂגְשֵׂג from √שׂגג
לְשַׁעְשֵׁעַ from √שׁעע
לְתַעְתֵּעַ from √תעע

These are all the pilpel verbs that I found by doing a search through HALOT. Some of them are reconstructed. You should look at them individually in a lexicon.

Hope it's helpful.

[kwrandolph]

צִלְצַ֣ל

Could someone help me to understand the idea in hebrew thought behind doubling a noun as in the above word from verse 1 of Isaiah 18. I have come across other words like this but unfortunately I can not remember any. That is of course, unless this is a noun formed from a root צִלל.

Of course, the idea of a shadow is conveyed, but not meant otherwise we would have just צִל, the idea of a whirring buzzing noise is conveyed also, so my immediate thought is that the ambiguity is the correct meaning, ie, both thoughts are conveyed. I accept the idea of insects, but due to the obscure nature of the context and the fact that if locusts were meant or the tse tse fly were intended, there would have been more directness and no need to be so cryptic. And then of course we have in Job 40:31 (41:7 in English) 'Spears' This throws a spanner in the works, to get the idea of whirring and buzzing from a spear, why not use the word Spear itself for which there are a couple of words to choose from? A little mysterious for me.

What are your thoughts please?

Chris watts

The word צלצל is used so seldom and in different ways that it’s difficult to get a handle on its meaning. The ancients may have known, but already by the LXX it was forgotten.

In Psalm 150:5 it refers to two varieties of a musical instrument. Is this instrument a cymbal as traditionally understood, or a type of rattle? Also 2 Samuel 6:5.
In Deuteronomy 28:42 and Isaiah 18:1 has been understood as locust swarm.
In Job 40:31 ???? a special fishing spear?

The Job passage is more problematic—is it the skin that fills the שכות or do the שכות fill the skin? The same is true of the next phrase, what fills what? There are enough words in this verse that are unknown that leaves us guessing. What role does the previous verse have in trying to interpret this verse, that this creature is divided among merchants?

Of course, we cannot leave out that we are dealing with a homograph.

It looks as if I’ve only muddied the waters more.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Chris Watts]

Jason thankyou for your exhaustive references, a search through these is beneficial.

Karl, I had of course already gone through these before I posted, but thankyou for taking the time to post anyway.

After careful consideration I think that the idea of both a noise as something flying, the noise of a wing and a shadow is conveyed. Since the following clause mentions wings, the idea is not lost methinks. One has suggested an allusion to Egypt due to their winged gods, but this is highly improbable. Mainly because Isaiah would have not been so elusive and he simply could have said the Nile instead.

chris watts

[Jason Hare]

I just found out that the Lexham Hebrew Bible on Logos (as opposed to Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) allows you to search more specifically. It has a longer list of secondary binyanim, so I was able to do a search specifically for all instances of pilpel verbs in the Tanach, and I've linked to the results as a PDF here:

https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/uploads/p ... ch_lhb.pdf

Enjoy!

[Chris Watts]

I just found out that the Lexham Hebrew Bible on Logos (as opposed to Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) allows you to search more specifically. It has a longer list of secondary binyanim, so I was able to do a search specifically for all instances of pilpel verbs in the Tanach, and I've linked to the results as a PDF here

Hallo Jason, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Definitely a study through this is going to be helpful. Thankyou.
Chris watts

[Kirk Lowery]

Jason,

This is off topic, but you mentioned using Logos for doing this research. May I ask: what packages do you have for doing Hebrew? (I'd also be interested in what you have for Greek.) The reason I'm interested is that I've decided to migrate from BibleWorks (R.I.P.), and am considering what is minimally necessary to do work in the Hebrew Bible. Thanks.

[Jason Hare]

Jason,

This is off topic, but you mentioned using Logos for doing this research. May I ask: what packages do you have for doing Hebrew? (I'd also be interested in what you have for Greek.) The reason I'm interested is that I've decided to migrate from BibleWorks (R.I.P.), and am considering what is minimally necessary to do work in the Hebrew Bible. Thanks.

The package that I got was really light/simple. It doesn't exist anymore. It was the SESB 2.0 package. It has NA27, BHS, BHQ (six volumes), lots of translations. I purchased BHQ Genesis separately and HALOT/BDAG bundle separately. My Logos isn't very robust, but I like what I have - and I pick up the free book every month and sometimes a couple of others on sale.

I paid only $75 for my package. I can see if the person who sold it to me has another key that I can get to you.