B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

כן

I need some help please. This word is usually used as a comparison between two clauses in a sentence, when by itself that is and not linked to another particle with a maquef, but I am looking for instances where it is used in a sort of continuation of the discourse where it means the equivalent of the English idea of "..I did this so now we will have to do this" As opposed to these two meanings : "...I did this so that this would happen" or "..In the same way the sun shines so my fire will never go out.." found 2 examples so far, Psalm 90:12 and Psalm 61:9. Turning to Gesenius I could not for the life of me locate any references to this word, I know he writes about it of course, but trying to find some things in Gesenius grammar is a real nightmare.

EDIT: What I should have said is this: In other words I am looking for instances where this word is used to mean the same idea as עַל־כֵּן֙,

Thanks

Chris watts

Check out the attached entry. It is from HALOT. Meaning 9 is relevant to your question.

Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:12 pm Check out the attached entry. It is from HALOT. Meaning 9 is relevant to your question.

Jason, Hi, I appreciate the help here. I can certainly look up the scriptures. However I would like to say that I know that HALOT is perfect for scholars and you have made it clear that you like it! Unfortunately I do not find it helpful at all, it is too much like the unreadeable BDB and besides they are just reference books. Tragelles and Gesenius are like tutors, they go into great detail and explain so much more. Which is why I was looking for this word in the Gesenius Grammar book, Tragelles only says that it has been used instead of AL-KeN in continuous dialogue and cites two examples, the Psalms that I cited.

I am not even sure that I can understand no 9 of HALOT, I am left with a : ....well has KeN been used instead of AL-KeN in scripture or not? The abbreviated presentation of what it is trying to demonstrate is really not intuitively understood.

Also unfortunately neither Arnold and Choi nor van der merwe and Kroeze bring this subject up, which is mysterious really since they are the most detailed modern grammars I have.

But thanks Jason for the offer of help anyway.

Kind Regards
Chris watts

Chris, Gesenius' grammar has a Hebrew word index in the back. Did you try checking there? Even-Shoshan's print concordance (in Hebrew) is helpful, too. The SHEBANQ site has a good online Hebrew concordance. Here is a link to their entry on כן in the sense you are researching:

https://shebanq.ancient-data.org/hebrew/text.

It lists all the verses in which it is found, in Hebrew.

Hope this helps,
Dewayne

There is also this one: https://qonqordnxih-ltnk.blogspot.com/2021/01/cn.html

I haven't used this one myself, so cannot vouch for its usefulness or accuracy. I have used the SHEBANQ one various times and it seems reliable.

talmid56 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:09 am Chris, Gesenius' grammar has a Hebrew word index in the back. Did you try checking there? Even-Shoshan's print concordance (in Hebrew) is helpful, too.

Hallo dewayne,

Was the first place I looked, the hebrew word list at the back is basically nothing, maybe it's because I have the 1898 edition but it does not list this. Obviously Shoshan but there are far far too many verses to look through each one individually and then translate half of them, and my hebrew is not fluent like the rest of this forum. The links you gave are interesting but do not help me to find the answer.

Really a simple question whether this word can be used to mean the same idea as עַל־כֵּן֙, Since I can not find any grammar explanatuons on this particular issue I put it to the forum. My knowledge of hebrew s not that great that I can pluck out verses out of my head and I am not able to find even Gesenius on this.

Rather than translating, I encourage you to attempt to read them. Then, before looking up any unfamiliar words, or checking grammar forms (in verbs, for instance), try to guess meaning and usage from context. You probably can do this more than you realize. You can still look up things then if needed. The thing is, it is better for you in the long run to take your Hebrew unfiltered, on its own terms. If the first thing you do is attempt to translate, or run to a standard translation (in any language), you risk never mastering the language. Hebrew is not a code for English or any other language. It is a real language with its own genius, its own beauty and power, and should be treated as such. (Not that I'm suggesting you're doing otherwise. But, the approach of translate vs. read is, like the road to hell, paved with good intentions, but seldom has good results.)

In the case of a word like כן, which has a large number of occurrences, I suggest dividing up the task into more than one session. Say, examine the references in the Torah first, or the first half of them. Next session, the next Bible section (ex. Historical Books, Writings, Prophets, etc.). If you are doing this study just for your own knowledge, then there is no hurry. Just depends on how long you want to spend on it and how thoroughly you want to study it.

As for BDB and HALOT, yes, they are very detailed. But this is not a bug, it's a feature. I expect any of us here who do use these regularly would be happy to assist you with questions on how to interpret an entry in these. All you need to do is ask. There is no shame in not knowing something. There is no shame in being ignorant. The shame is in being willing to remain so, IMHO. As someone (I forget who) once famously said, "We are all ignorant, just on different subjects."

As with Bible study in general, Hebrew study is like searching for treasure. Some you find close to the surface; some you have to dig a little deeper for. It all depends on how much it is worth to you.

The above is meant to encourage, not to criticize or put down in any way.

There's another good reason to look these up yourself (with the aids I've suggested, or any that are more accessible to you). That is, you will have the satisfaction and confidence of having first-hand knowledge once you're done. (That isn't to say you shouldn't ask for help here on it. Far from it.) In a way, it's like looking at the interpretation given in a Bible commentary of a particular passage. You could do as many do and run to the commentator first. But the thing is, commentators are human and make mistakes just like the rest of us. They have biases, even the ones who are sincere and have good intentions. Better to check it out yourself first, than to be completely dependent on them.

And on reading and translation: if your Hebrew isn't fluent, you won't be able to translate well. You must be able to read with comprehension any text you translate for the translation to be correct and understandable. That is just how it works. As one who works with interpreting (translating) Spanish to English and English to Spanish on a daily basis, I know for certain this is true. If I don't understand something that is said, I can't translate it. In this case the material is oral, not written, but the principles are the same. It does not matter whether it is ancient Hebrew or a modern language. The same principles apply.

Dewayne,

Such a message of fresh air and encouragement!

Great posts.

Jason