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Dewayne, I do not know what happned I posted a thankyou 2 days ago etc but the message did not appear - what I said was thanks for the advice.

Jason, Hi, reading through the above is similar to what I have in more detail with Tragelles. However everything is helpful most certainly. I suppose that the abbreviations sts = substantive? and acc = accusative? and I suppose v = verb? but no idea what iv means in this context, obviously 4, but 4 for what? Sorry Jason, too much abbreviated language.

Tragelles says what I think? is written here in BDB that namely: <<<<in the continuation of discourse can mean 'and so therefore' ' and so then'. This is what I am after. In BDB I think this might be the same as when he says: 'B) inferring the cause .....not a consequence of but the development of what is implicit in it...' This is where Tragelles is advantageous, he gives plenty of examples, but in this instance gives only two, those two psalms I quoted earlier."

I do have access to BDB online but never use it, so no need Jason to post your helpful examples, thankyou anyway.

Chris watts

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:33 pm EDIT: What I should have said is this: In other words, I am looking for instances where this word is used to mean the same idea as עַל־כֵּן֙,

Hi Chris.
על כן comes in the meaning of "therefore".

I don't think there is a case of כן alone with that meaning.

ducky wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:20 am

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:33 pm EDIT: What I should have said is this: In other words, I am looking for instances where this word is used to mean the same idea as עַל־כֵּן֙,

Hi Chris.
על כן comes in the meaning of "therefore".

I don't think there is a case of כן alone with that meaning.

Hallo David,

I think that Psalms 61:9 (Heb) and 90:12 are two good examples. What do you think?

Chris watts

Hi Chris,

No. I don't think so.

Even though you can give it a sense in your reading, I don't think this is the right intention of the text.

The word על of the על-כן has the role of making the "so" to the meaning of "therefore".

Hi Chris,

What makes the combination of the two words על+כן to the meaning of "therefore" is the word על (not the word כן).
The word כן alone would be like saying "so", "this way", "that"
When it gets the word על before it, it is like saying "over that", "for that", "on that account" (or something like that).

I did this. therefore that happened.
I did this. and on that account, that happened.
I did this. and over that, that happened.
I did this. and for that, that happened.


The word על (with or without another word) also has the meaning of "reasoning" (as saying "for", or because of)

So just like the English word "therefore" is based on the two words "there+for" (or in other words "for that")
this is the translation of על כן
for=על
there (as pointing)/that=כן

So I don't see the word כן having the sense of על כן - since the main word would be the word על.

Was there another post here that was deleted or am I delusional?

Hallo David, firstly, yes I deleted my post. Secondly, what you wrote above beats anything I read in grammar books, I hardly ever bother with explanations just look at loads of examples and draw my own conclusions. You really should write a grammar book. It is much better than saying "This is the apodosis of comparison related to an inference that......bla bla bla time for bed said zebedee.....".

Thirdly, back to the adverb: While I wholeheartedly understand both your explanation, which is great by the way, and the fact that this adverb כן is mostly used to draw a comparison to what has just gone before it, one can not draw any comparison between Verses 8 and 9 (heb edition) of psalm 61 for example. It is very difficult NOT to think 'therfore' when I read the 'apparant' conjunctive force between the beginning of verse 9 and end of verse 8 in pslam 61.

It is the same way as sayng: "Prepare mercy and truth which may preserve him, therefore I can now sing......therefore am I able to sing, as a result of this I am able to sing. Hence, I am having trouble, is it my English thinking mind being far too detatched from the advantage of having a Hebrew mindset then? I don't know. The grammar books that I have are very good, but darn and utterly useless and irrelevant on this word and on these adverbs in general - it is darn annoying thet they pay little attention to these kind of words such as לכן and עלכן Hence, although I know Gesenius grammar has to refer to this, I simply can not find it, when you want something specific in Gesenius - it is very difficult to track it down.please David.

PS, by the way I know that לכן also means 'therefore' but how would you explain it, if you do not mnd please David.

Chris watts

Hi Chris and thanks.

The word כן in this verse could be read at least in three different ways.

1. So --- In the meaning of "this is how"/"like that".
The poet actually already finished his song. And then comes his statement that says "This is how I'll praise for you every day...".

2. So--- In the meaning of emphasis (like "indeed") as he says "I WILL praise you every day"

3. So--- as a comparison. " Just as You will benefit me, so will I sing praises to Your name by paying my vows every day." (this is what Rahi wrote).
And there are more ways to see a comparison, but never mind.

I tend to see the first one better.

***
As for לכן
It is the same as על כן
since the ל has many roles it can be tricky, but I guess it is the same. It would be with the meaning of "to, for, or according".

Thankyou David for your insightful comments.

Chris watts