Jer. 12:9 question on a collective noun

[Dizerner]

this would allude to a people who have dipped themselves in order to re-colour their behaviours to make them seem something other than what they really are.

It's really interesting you say this because I was thinking it could be the explanation of the etymology of the word becoming hypocrite.

The Message Bible seems to have taken this kind of idea:

Has this one I hold dear become a preening peacock? But isn't she under attack by vultures? Then invite all the hungry animals at large, invite them in for a free meal! (Jer. 12:9 Message)

However, this passage follows a criticism of the heritage being a "roaring lion in the forrest." The bird of prey must have a negative connotation, and the things bird of prey do is to prey—their negative trait is their predatory behavior not their pompous looks.

But I appreciate the push-back!

[Dizerner]

Ezekiel 23:15 has a word for "to dye" in the plural, strangely under this verb's root in even-shoshan it does not list Ezekiel 23:15 at all. It does however have a question mark next to the word in its description but does not list the verse. No idea why.

Why synonyms are used at all can seem a bit of a puzzle, but there is nuance to it, and the author will not always use one word. I don't think it's a very convincing argument personally, and you could argue if the author wanted to mean colorful, there is in fact other words for that too. Notice in Ezekiel 17:3 a different word is chosen to convey the idea of ornate for an eagle, why was this not used in Jeremiah then? The word in Jeremiah 12:9 seems used in Judges 5:30.

I'm not seeing the word in Eze. 23:15 a little help? I'm not just trying to be argumentative, I appreciate the input.

[Jason Hare]

Sorry I have no access to Leningrad codex online for some reason and so can not insert the verses or words below in my comments.

Before even reading the rest of your comment, I just wanted to point out that one of our members (Chris Kimball) constantly posts updates that he makes to the website tanach.us, which hosts the WLC and Leningrad Codex. You can easily access scans of the codex on that site.

[Jason Hare]

Jason, just seen your even shoshan entry. What even shoshan dictionary is this please?
chris watts

The Expanded Even-Shoshan Dictionary in Six Volumes (מילון אבן-שושן המורחב בשישה כרכים). I didn't know that there was more than one, except that it is often sold in a single-volume unabridged version. Mine is licensed through Babylon, the dictionary software. It's the only electronic version that I'm aware of.

There is no Even-Shoshan dictionary in English. It is Hebrew-Hebrew.

[Jason Hare]

Ezekiel 23:15 has a word for "to dye" in the plural, strangely under this verb's root in even-shoshan it does not list Ezekiel 23:15 at all. It does however have a question mark next to the word in its description but does not list the verse. No idea why.

I don't see what you're talking about.

חֲגֹורֵ֨י אֵזֹ֜ור בְּמָתְנֵיהֶ֗ם סְרוּחֵ֤י טְבוּלִים֙ בְּרָ֣אשֵׁיהֶ֔ם מַרְאֵ֥ה שָׁלִשִׁ֖ים כֻּלָּ֑ם דְּמ֤וּת בְּנֵֽי־בָבֶל֙ כַּשְׂדִּ֔ים אֶ֖רֶץ מֹולַדְתָּֽם׃

I don't see a verb that means "to dye" in that verse. What word are you talking about?

But surely if any form of being bloodied was truly meant then why the need to obfuscate.

You have me so lost. Who is obfuscating? What are you talking about?

And if dyed was meant, why not use the word that is in Ezekiel.

???

Also in Isaiah 63:1 we have a different word translated as dyed into English, it is the same word that is used for leaven, though this might have a different significance perhaps.

You keep saying this "one word" and "another word" and "the same word" that is "translated" in a given way or not translated in the way you think it should be translated. Please spell out what you're talking about. What word is supposedly translated in this or that way? What are you talking about? Reference Hebrew. Don't make us guess and try to follow you!

Just thoughts popping around my head.

I wish that I could even follow what you're trying to say or what argument you're trying to make. I just don't know what you're talking about or why you think it's significant to the meaning of the text.

[Jason Hare]

I'm not seeing the word in Eze. 23:15 a little help? I'm not just trying to be argumentative, I appreciate the input.

I don't see it, either.

[Chris Watts]

Hallo Jason and Dizerner,

Firstly Jason,

<<<<Reference Hebrew. Don't make us guess and try to follow you!>>>> SORRY, But This is why I mentioned at the beginning of my last post that I could not access Chris Kimnall's site. This is the one I access all the time, last night I was getting an error. Hence I put this at the beginning of the post.

<<<<I wish that I could even follow what you're trying to say or what argument you're trying to make. I just don't know what you're talking about or why you think it's significant to the meaning of the text>>>>

I am not trying to make anny argument by this, just having a look around scripture to see what or how any hebrew word is used to mean or insuate the idea of "Dyed",

Ezekiel 23:16....
חֲגוֹרֵ֨י אֵז֜וֹר בְּמָתְנֵיהֶ֗ם סְרוּחֵ֤י טְבוּלִים֙ בְּרָ֣אשֵׁיהֶ֔ם I only put it on the post because I thought it might be interesting to see where the word "Dye' is elsewhere used, The KJV translates this word as "Dyed Turban".

Isaiah 63:1....
בָּ֣א מֵאֱד֗וֹם חֲמ֤וּץ בְּגָדִים֙ מִבָּצְרָ֔ה Just thought it might be interesting to see that an idea of 'Dyed' is conveyed by the KJV here as well.

Now I realise they do not contribute much and that it is now irrelevant, I was just hunting down ideas for the concept of "Dyed" that is all. Totally unhelpful come to think of it.

Sorry about the word "Obsfucate", I probably should have said : "If Jeremiah meant us to understand clearly the word for 'Dyed' or "Bloodied' in some way - why use a word to imply contrasting meanings? it's clearer now, and I showed this in the rest of what I wrote when I talked about what is now understood as 'hypocrisy'. I should actually, upon reflection, not even have said this. But that's me, I make the mistake so often of throwing in a comment that pops into my head as I am writing the post. I will try to avid that in the future.

Dizerner

I hope that scriptural quotes mentioned above are clearer now. Sorry for the lack of these as I explained earlier to Jason why this happened.

<<<<and you could argue if the author wanted to mean colorful, there is in fact other words for that too. Notice in Ezekiel 17:3 a different word is chosen to convey the idea of ornate for an eagle, why was this not used in Jeremiah then? The word in Jeremiah 12:9 seems used in Judges 5:30.>>>>

Yes I take your point about Judges 5:30 and the word "Colourful", and the remark about synonyms. As I have mentioned in other unrelated posts, I suppose the ambiguity is the correct answer, as opposed to trying to define a single meaning and thereby losing the very thing we are searching for.


Chris watts

[Jason Hare]

Mechon-mamre.org and BibleGateway.com have the Bible in Hebrew. You don't need to be tied down to one specific site. If that site goes down, there are other options. There are plenty of other options, too.

The KJV isn't the arbiter of the meanings of Hebrew words, and if I had known that טְבוּלִים təḇûlîm were the word you were looking for, I would have told you that it means "dipped," not "dyed," even if it does mean that they had been dipped in coloring. I just didn't see a word "dyed" in that verse. It's not that Jeremiah is being unclear; it's that you're using English as your basic meaning and looking for meaning behind it. If you were to go from Hebrew to English rather than from English to Hebrew, you wouldn't make connections like this.

[Chris Watts]

If you were to go from Hebrew to English rather than from English to Hebrew, you wouldn't make connections like this.

I don't go from English to Hebrew, I go from hebrew to two dictionaries to concordance to lexicon to hebrew. THEN I do comparisons based on even shoshan and THEN I see how KJV is translating a word OR I may know how the KJV has translated it but ALWAYS accept this as their best English rather than their absolute authority. I hope this clears up any misguided assumption you have formed.

As I made quite clear, I was using the KJV interpretion to get a better idea about how any word that might be connected to the concept of coloured or dyeing might be used. That is all. I then posted it not as fact but as a mere extra bit of maybe useless information.

[Chris Watts]

this would allude to a people who have dipped themselves in order to re-colour their behaviours to make them seem something other than what they really are.

It's really interesting you say this because I was thinking it could be the explanation of the etymology of the word becoming hypocrite.

The Message Bible seems to have taken this kind of idea:

Has this one I hold dear become a preening peacock? But isn't she under attack by vultures? Then invite all the hungry animals at large, invite them in for a free meal! (Jer. 12:9 Message)

It is interesting, though right now I have no idea if it is relevant, that in Ezekiel 39:4, the word I have highlighted in bold is translated as 'Ravenous' and is followed by the more common word for bird. In view of this I am inclined to see any Ravenous animal is possible here, maybe the ambiguity is meant?

עַל־הָרֵ֨י יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל תִּפּ֗וֹל אַתָּה֙ וְכָל־אֲגַפֶּ֔יךָ וְעַמִּ֖ים אֲשֶׁ֣ר אִתָּ֑ךְ לְעֵ֨יט צִפּ֧וֹר

chris watts