Jer. 12:9 question on a collective noun

[talmid56]

Chris, If you'll let me know which device or devices (computer, tablet, or phone) and operating systems (e.g., Mac, Windows, iOS, Android) you use for this, I can advise you better about the software.

[Jason Hare]

Hi,

The word טבולים here has nothing to do with the regular Hebrew root טבל (as dipping).
It is a loan word from Akkadian "tublu" (Ezekiel's book has some Akkadian influence).
And this is some sort of a "wrapped hat".

Right. HALOT renders it as a turban. The Septuagint renders it as τιάραι βαπταί "dipped tiaras," and we are told by BrillDAG that βαπτός means:

βαπτός -ή -όν βάπτω ⓐ dipped, dyed, tinted DIOD. 5.30.1 etc. ‖ colorful, brilliantly colored ARISTOPH. Av. 287 (bird), Pl. 530 (garments) ‖ painted black, dark-colored, of clothing HEGESIP. 1.13 PLUT. Ages. 30.4 ⓑ to be drawn EUR. Hip. 123 Dor. fem. -πτά.

The term is certainly interesting. Perhaps the LXX translators didn't understand it either. BDAG doesn't have an entry for βαπτός in the Koinē specifically.

HALOT specifically renders סחורי טבולים here as "with a hanging turban." It is a hapax legomenon, of course.

[Dizerner]

A. Waard in a Handbook of Jeremiah says his committee was quite convinced the author intended a wordplay with cave/bird of prey which is how the LXX took it, however the trouble I have with this view is it doesn't fit the metaphors. Taking "cave of the hyena" leads to incongruity.

Israel goes from being a lion that roars to a cave... and then the birds of prey supposedly over the cave would not in real life be any threat to the hyena, but rather would try to join in on whatever the hyena is eating, which would support Israel as a predator, but this is not the picture.

If the bird of prey was in fact getting preyed itself, this brings out a real sense of poetic justice and the guilt of the people.

[ducky]

By the way,
without getting into this discussion.
Just a note to say that some understand the עיט צבוע as a specific bird - Aquila.
צבוע would be like in the word אצבע which means "finger"
And this aquila (or eagle) has a big finger (which Vultures don't, for example)

And so עיט צבוע would be just a description of the species.

Great info, thanks. That explains the translation of the Koren Bible here I posted above. Do you think it's a likely reading? It makes more of a parallel with a roaring lion (the claws being antagonism) and seeing as it is just one word creating the uncertainty it does have an Occam's razor type appeal.

My inheritance is a long clawed eagle to me. But the eagle is round about her! Come, assemble together all the wild beasts of the field, bring them to devour. (Jer 12:9 Koren Bible)

Hi Dizerner,

You ask if seeing the עיט צבוע as the eagle fits the Korean translation.
But I have a trouble to fully understand it.

So A few questions for you about the meaning this translation wants to bring:

1. "My inheritance is a long clawed eagle to me."
What do you understand from that? what does this comparison mean?

2. "But the eagle is round about her!"
Is that the same eagle? Or another eagle? Or other eagles?
What is the meaning of "round about her"? Is that like "circuling her"?

3. But the eagle is round about her!"
Who is "her?

**

[Dizerner]

You ask if seeing the עיט צבוע as the eagle fits the Korean translation.

This is the Koren Bible, not a Korean translation.

https://www.amazon.com/Koren-Jerusalem- ... 7233&psc=1

But I have a trouble to fully understand it.

So A few questions for you about the meaning this translation wants to bring:

1. "My inheritance is a long clawed eagle to me."
What do you understand from that? what does this comparison mean?

2. "But the eagle is round about her!"
Is that the same eagle? Or another eagle? Or other eagles?
What is the meaning of "round about her"? Is that like "circuling her"?

3. But the eagle is round about her!"
Who is "her?

1. I guess an eagle that is aggressive.
2. Another eagle.
3. The first eagle.

[Dizerner]

Aquila

I'd be curious for a source for your original info concerning Aquila and finger.

[Dizerner]

Here's the study note I ended up writing on this verse, would appreciate any corrections or observations:

• Bird of prey dyed with color [is] inheritance to me? Bird of prey [is] encircled upon her? [Commanded] Go gather all beasts of the field for a meal! The word for "dyed with color" here could also theoretically mean "long fingered" (large claws, a certain species) or "hyena." Since "bird of prey hyena" makes no sense some have speculated that "bird of prey" might mean cave here from a cognate (ESV), and others (NRSV) have considered making "bird of prey" which has a verb form, as meaning "rapacious" (1 S 14:32). Some speculate hyena as a more generic beast. The LXX translates "cave" in both places and "hyena." This does not make sense however, because it compares Israel to a cave after being compared to a roaring lion and the second bird of prey would be helping the hyena as a predator. Some have speculated the bird could have been splotched with blood (either its own or others, Leeser, Knox), and some of have speculated that the bird was ornate and thus attracted attention (Matthew, Wycliffe; the Latin seems to interpolate "encircled with colors"). It is interesting that the word used for "dyed with color" has also meant "hypocritical" in Hebrew as early as the Talmud, presumably from the etymology of something like "white-washed," an external fake coating, and some have thought the bird was "dyed" with compromise or religious activities. Perhaps Jeremiah was using some word play. The term encircled could be visualizing the circling overhead of the bird, rather than birds all around in a circle, because the second bird of prey makes the most sense as Bablyon who then makes the way for the other nations. If the bird of prey was in fact getting preyed itself, this brings out a real sense of poetic justice and the guilt of the people. Almost all versions except the Koren Bible take the second bird of prey as a plural by assuming idiom, making it seem the same as the beasts. There is a parallel idea in the "colorful eagle" of Babylon in Ezekiel 17. If the two articles that indicate the first two statements are interrogative by the Masorete pathach pointing were incorrect (and actually qamets), it would not bring out the poetic justice in the same way. Perhaps best translated as, "Is my inheritance all painted with pretty colors but still a predatory bird? And now another predator is circling overhead? Then go call all the wild beasts to come to this feast!"

[Chris Watts]

From a commentary by Ebenezer Henderson written around 1851 he categorically reproves any association with 'Hyena' and I also think the association is utterly daft. But what is interesting is this part I have extracted.

......The Jews had become like the heathen nations — differing from them only in combining a vain observance of Mosaic rites with those which they had adopted from paganism, and thus presenting a motley appearance. And the nations around were ready, like birds of prey, to pounce upon them, and destroy them as a nation. With these, other rapacious enemies are summoned to unite in rushing to the prey.

chris watts

[Dizerner]

From a commentary by Ebenezer Henderson written around 1851 he categorically reproves any association with 'Hyena' and I also think the association is utterly daft. But what is interesting is this part I have extracted.

......The Jews had become like the heathen nations — differing from them only in combining a vain observance of Mosaic rites with those which they had adopted from paganism, and thus presenting a motley appearance. And the nations around were ready, like birds of prey, to pounce upon them, and destroy them as a nation. With these, other rapacious enemies are summoned to unite in rushing to the prey.

chris watts

Thanks for the input Chris, I appreciate it.

The reason I think the beasts are the other nations is because Babylon really made the way for Israel to be victimized.

[Chris Watts]

From a commentary by Ebenezer Henderson written around 1851 he categorically reproves any association with 'Hyena' and I also think the association is utterly daft. But what is interesting is this part I have extracted.

......The Jews had become like the heathen nations — differing from them only in combining a vain observance of Mosaic rites with those which they had adopted from paganism, and thus presenting a motley appearance. And the nations around were ready, like birds of prey, to pounce upon them, and destroy them as a nation. With these, other rapacious enemies are summoned to unite in rushing to the prey.

chris watts

Thanks for the input Chris, I appreciate it.

The reason I think the beasts are the other nations is because Babylon really made the way for Israel to be victimized.

Yes that is right. But "...victimized" I do not think this is the right perspective, is there a reason why you use this descriptive word?
Chris watts