Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:00 am
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:34 am
Maybe I should have been more clear. your theory that you espouse is no less a faith position than is mine, therefore no more of a serious study of history.
A position that assumes nothing other than natural explanations cannot be said to be a faith position.
On the contrary, that is a
de facto definition of a faith position. What you just described is
Naturalism, along with
Secular Humanism, Mahayana Buddhism and some others, one of the atheistic religions. By this opening sentence, have you revealed
your faith position?
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:00 am
Believing in talking donkeys, water backing up like walls to the right and left, people walking on water, the earth stopping in its rotation, the raising of the dead... these are things that can only be accepted on faith, since they have nothing to do with our experience of the real world.
Your definition of “the real world”? What answer can you give that is not a matter of faith, i.e. a religion?
It appears that you have taken the faith position that the present is the key to the past. Is there any way to back up that faith position to guard against unexpected, unexplained events in the past?
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:00 am
Seeing the Bible as the product of human invention, just like the
Iliad and the
Aenid, is not a position of faith.
How is this not a faith statement, for which you have no evidence, neither to back it up nor to refute it?
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:00 am
It is simply how we relate to EVERY text in the history of mankind. You are arguing for special pleading for one religious text while ignoring the fact that every other religion in the world has their own claim to the same conclusions, just about a different book than the one that you think really represents the deep magic of existence.
The question is, which historical record is the most accurate?
To about 400 BC, our present understanding of history seems fairly accurate, i.e. within a decade or two of accuracy. Before that, the differing understandings of history start getting rather hairy.
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:00 am
It's fine for you to believe in magic and all. Lots of people do. However, when it is becomes the basis of your interpretation of the text, you cannot expect other people to accept it.
You mean like the magic of inventing a language that has never been observed? Then used to critique a language that has been observed? An example being proto-semitic?
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:00 am
Believe in magic all you want, but don't imagine that I need to believe in things that don't happen in real life in order to properly understand or interpret an historical text. I don't have to believe in Hera to understand and appreciate the
Iliad, for example. Nor must I believe in Yahweh or any other deity in order to appreciate and interpret the Bible.
If you want to be accepted in what you say, stick with what the text actually says. It doesn’t matter if you agree with it or not, you’re on safe ground saying “The text says …” without adding your commentary based on your faith position/religion. The text says that Moses wrote the Torah about 1400 BC. It’s irrelevant whether you agree with the text or not, you have to agree that that’s what the text claims.
The Bible presents a coherent message, if you start with its initial claims. But we are not here to proselytize, we’re here merely to discuss the language of Biblical Hebrew. Because there’s only one book written in Biblical Hebrew, discussing the language used demands an accurate description of what the Bible claims. And for those like myself who trust its claims, there is double the urgency that we accurately understand its claims, therefore also accurately understand its language.
Karl W. Randolph.