Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

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Chris Watts
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by Chris Watts »

Good Evening Gentlemen,

Talmid wrote the following :
I have not read any of the non-Biblical DSS, but those who are experts in that field suggest that they reflect a vernacular spoken at the time of their composition. That is, a everyday Hebrew dialect, and one spoken long after your cutoff date.

This is no doubt not hard evidence in your view, but it works for many scholars, and it's plausible in my view.

Karl then replied with this :
Yes, it works for many scholars. But so far none of them have shown any hard evidence to back up their claims.
Karl may I ask what kind of hard evidence would be acceptable for you? I ask this because in my view Angel Saenz-Badillos's history of the Hebrew language provides this in the form of a detailed explanation of hebrew words and grammar used in various Dead Sea Scrolls and from the scriptures themselves. He indeed uses the word 'Vernacular' and to mean spoken on a daily basis. I have re-read a few chapters and confess my knowledge of Hebrew not good enough to get to grips with some rather over my head grammatical and liguistic terminology and descriptive analysis of many hebrew words and forms. But methinks a little mental juggling has formed a balanced conclusion to much of what he talks about. His book was rated as outstanding and un-equalled in intelligence and thorough research as from 2004. I find it a fascinating book and wish I had time to delve more thoroughly into it, but could you not give it a go?

So unless we wait for the ressurection of Ezra and Nehemiah whereby both our curiosities will be finally resolved and one of us will then say : told you so, what hard evidence can you expect?

Chris watts
kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by kwrandolph »

Chris, you asked, what would I consider as hard evidence?

• A document, written in Hebrew identifying a town or region as speaking Hebrew.

• A trove of documents written in Hebrew not connected to law, worship, high literature and/or communications with the diaspora.

So far, it is my understanding, that not one document has turned up that fulfills either of the two.

Karl W. Randolph.
Chris Watts
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by Chris Watts »

kwrandolph wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:30 pm Chris, you asked, what would I consider as hard evidence?

• A document, written in Hebrew identifying a town or region as speaking Hebrew.

• A trove of documents written in Hebrew not connected to law, worship, high literature and/or communications with the diaspora.

So far, it is my understanding, that not one document has turned up that fulfills either of the two.

Karl W. Randolph.
Ok Karl thankyou. And of course I do not doubt your final comment here, no evidence of a vernacular/market language attested after 500 BC even though I do see it. But I empathize with your perspective.

However, I do wonder about other ancient languages, I have read that the only texts.tablets available for the Sumerian language consist of leagal/law and administrative writings. Do you think that the common people here would have waffled along in a pub/street/market place dialogue in Sumerian? And I wonder if this applies to a few other ancient sources where there are only official and administrative fragments.

Another valuable point worth considering is this: There were no bookshops and staionary outlets where Mr and Mrs post exilic returnee could buy paper and pen, and I am convinced (though not by hard documentary evidence) that very very few people would have been able to write in the first place,( except perhaps that one school child who scribbled the agricultural times on a piece of stone). In fact would it be untrue of me to conclude that all evidence of ancient languages consist primarily in documentary.legal and historical records? And thereofre conclude that there was no waffling market talk in the towns in these languages- but we have no non governmental non administrative non legal records of this do we?

As a final point in question:

1. What language do you think Joseph aquired in Egypt?
2. ...And therefore what languages did now his two sons, Ephraim and Mannessah, speak with by his Egyptian wife? And did Joseph ever imagine that he would be speaking the langauge of Canaan ever again, so did he teach it to his sons?
3. Moses was raised Egyptian (different language) emigrated to Midian (different language) and wrote and spoke ? (different language)
4. The hebrew slaves, 400 years, surely their kids aquired Egyptian? I mean let's face it, neither Joseph nor the family of Jacob ever thought they would really be going back to Canaan. So now that they are living freely with much less of a national identity than what they would have in Babylon, and the subsequent genrations following them BEFORE slavery they would have mingled and done business in Egypt. So I am very surprised that we do not have the first 5 books of Moses written in Hieroglyphics. Let's face it, thousands descended from those 8, and really, their kids would have played chase the camel with their Egyptian buddies.

Or am I being naive and too simplistic?

Now where is the documentary evidence?

Oh and Finally Saenz-Badillos does not agree with you on a chronological order for as you quoted a "...DSS morphed to Tiberian..." scenario, language never works lke this.

Chris watts
talmid56
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Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by talmid56 »

I'm not sure how big a trove of documents has to be. I think the some of the Bar Kochva documents (A.D. 132-135!) fit. Some of the ones Bar Kochva (Bar Kosiba) exchanged with other rebel leaders were in Hebrew. They were military dispatches, so clearly not scholarly/second language documents. We also have from the same trove land lease documents from Eleazar ben Shmuel (Samuel) leasing land to Bar Kosiba. Some of the leases are written in Hebrew as well, in a quite elegant hand similar to that used for Bible MSS. (Others concerning the land lease are in Aramaic.) This is surely an everyday communication, not scholarly. And, as you see, way past the cutoff time you have proposed. Have a look for yourself at the images, if you like: https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explo ... Hev%2044-1. The two from Eleazar in Hebrew are 5/6Hev 44 and 46.

There are also coins from the Maccabean revolt and the Bar Kochva revolt with Hebrew inscriptions. One interesting thing about these is that they use Paleo-Hebrew script rather than the square script. There were not, as far as I know, special collectible coins issued back in those days. So, it is likely these were issued for public, common use. Nothing scholarly there. Again, later use than you argue for. 2nd century B.C. and 2nd century A.D.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
kwrandolph
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by kwrandolph »

Chris: you are grasping at straws again.
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:35 am
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:30 pm Chris, you asked, what would I consider as hard evidence?

• A document, written in Hebrew identifying a town or region as speaking Hebrew.

• A trove of documents written in Hebrew not connected to law, worship, high literature and/or communications with the diaspora.

So far, it is my understanding, that not one document has turned up that fulfills either of the two.

Karl W. Randolph.
Ok Karl thankyou. And of course I do not doubt your final comment here, no evidence of a vernacular/market language attested after 500 BC even though I do see it. But I empathize with your perspective.
How do you see it? First hand through documents that you know, or the claims of others?
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:35 am However, I do wonder about other ancient languages, I have read that the only texts.tablets available for the Sumerian language consist of leagal/law and administrative writings. Do you think that the common people here would have waffled along in a pub/street/market place dialogue in Sumerian? And I wonder if this applies to a few other ancient sources where there are only official and administrative fragments.
We know too little about daily life in Sumer to be able to answer all your questions.
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:35 am Another valuable point worth considering is this: There were no bookshops and staionary outlets where Mr and Mrs post exilic returnee could buy paper and pen, and I am convinced (though not by hard documentary evidence) that very very few people would have been able to write in the first place,( except perhaps that one school child who scribbled the agricultural times on a piece of stone). In fact would it be untrue of me to conclude that all evidence of ancient languages consist primarily in documentary.legal and historical records? And thereofre conclude that there was no waffling market talk in the towns in these languages- but we have no non governmental non administrative non legal records of this do we?
The evidence is that almost all Jews, both before and after the exile, could both read and write. However, there were people who were hired to write official documents because of their beautiful handwriting.

An example of how almost anyone can learn to read and write, are the Cherokee Indians. When the majority of Cherokees were still living in tents, Sequoyah invented a syllabary to record the language. Within months, practically every Cherokee could read and write. Likewise Hebrew writing was equally simple to learn.
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:35 am As a final point in question:

1. What language do you think Joseph aquired in Egypt?
He acquired Egyptian. But he didn’t forget his native tongue. The book of Genesis records that.
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:35 am 2. ...And therefore what languages did now his two sons, Ephraim and Mannessah, speak with by his Egyptian wife? And did Joseph ever imagine that he would be speaking the langauge of Canaan ever again, so did he teach it to his sons?
Genesis mentions it specifically, Exodus hints at it, that outside of necessary business, Egyptians avoided contact with Hebrews. Likewise, Hebrews had little contact with Egyptians.
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:35 am 3. Moses was raised Egyptian (different language) emigrated to Midian (different language) and wrote and spoke ? (different language)
Moses was reared first by his mother, then put in a situation where he spoke Egyptian. As a top official in the government, he would have been required to learn a few important languages.
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:35 am 4. The hebrew slaves, 400 years, surely their kids aquired Egyptian? I mean let's face it, neither Joseph nor the family of Jacob ever thought they would really be going back to Canaan. So now that they are living freely with much less of a national identity than what they would have in Babylon, and the subsequent genrations following them BEFORE slavery they would have mingled and done business in Egypt. So I am very surprised that we do not have the first 5 books of Moses written in Hieroglyphics. Let's face it, thousands descended from those 8, and really, their kids would have played chase the camel with their Egyptian buddies.
Joseph specifically said that he expected the people to return to Canaan.

See above, the Israelites had little contact with Egyptians, lived in self-contained communities, as a result the children didn’t have Egyptian buddies.

That was not the case in Babylon and Persia.
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:35 am Or am I being naive and too simplistic?

Now where is the documentary evidence?

Oh and Finally Saenz-Badillos does not agree with you on a chronological order for as you quoted a "...DSS morphed to Tiberian..." scenario, language never works lke this.

Chris watts


Who is this Saenz-Badillos? Why should I listen to him? All I see of him is his contradiction to the historical and Biblical records. What makes him such an expert that people should set aside their own thinking and listen to him?
talmid56 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:10 pm I'm not sure how big a trove of documents has to be. I think the some of the Bar Kochva documents (A.D. 132-135!) fit. Some of the ones Bar Kochva (Bar Kosiba) exchanged with other rebel leaders were in Hebrew. They were military dispatches, so clearly not scholarly/second language documents. We also have from the same trove land lease documents from Eleazar ben Shmuel (Samuel) leasing land to Bar Kosiba. Some of the leases are written in Hebrew as well, in a quite elegant hand similar to that used for Bible MSS. (Others concerning the land lease are in Aramaic.) This is surely an everyday communication, not scholarly. And, as you see, way past the cutoff time you have proposed. Have a look for yourself at the images, if you like: https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explo ... Hev%2044-1. The two from Eleazar in Hebrew are 5/6Hev 44 and 46.
Bar Kochba tried to revive Hebrew as an everyday, spoken language. But too few Jews knew Hebrew well enough to make that effort a success. What you describe is still well within the realm of a learned, second language. At least one of the writers of a non-Hebrew letter admitted that he didn’t know Hebrew. It is my understanding that fewer than half of the letters are in Hebrew.

That he was called “Bar Kochba” already implies an Aramaic background.
talmid56 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:10 pm There are also coins from the Maccabean revolt and the Bar Kochva revolt with Hebrew inscriptions. One interesting thing about these is that they use Paleo-Hebrew script rather than the square script. There were not, as far as I know, special collectible coins issued back in those days. So, it is likely these were issued for public, common use. Nothing scholarly there. Again, later use than you argue for. 2nd century B.C. and 2nd century A.D.
Remember, Hebrew was used for temple worship, for business, for official records, for law, for communications with the diaspora, for high literature, in other words for reasons other than scholarly. In all those uses, it was a learned, second language.

The paleo-Hebrew font was still known and to a limited extent still used, in late second temple times and for a while afterwards. That can be seen also among the DSS. Coins were connected with both government and commerce.

So far, there has been no indication of Hebrew usage that required that Hebrew be the language of the street and in the market. A learned second language suffices for these uses.

Karl W. Randolph.
Chris Watts
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by Chris Watts »

So far, there has been no indication of Hebrew usage that required that Hebrew be the language of the street and in the market. A learned second language suffices for these uses.
Grasping at straws? Well one can still breathe underwater with one of those!

Saenz-Badillos provides enough Evidence/analysis to conclude that there was still a spoken market language hebrew up to at least 200 AD, therefore you show contempt. If he had provided evidence to the contrary I would have agreed with that also, so I am not seeking a side on this. I am just against irrational ways of thinking that's all.

You have sufficient evidence from various sources both in written historical form and circumstantial and then there is my favourite form of evidence, the "Bleedin Obvious" but you prefer to interpret that evidence in a manner that kills any possibility of doubt that you may have to re-consider your perspective. And seriously Karl, a nation having spoken a language over a thousand years that language became extinct and then in a twinkle of a moment they have to re-learn it as a second language? NUTS and double nuts! Not possible by any stretching of the imagination, and this is certainly grasping at Egyptian reeds. There is not a shred of indication that this happened. Saenz-Badillos makes it clear that while aramaic was certainly a language widely employed and spoken, especially in the North of Israel, he shows how in Judea this was not the case, that the vernacular was retained there can be no doubt.

I know one can lose a language in one generation, but I also know that a language can remain vibrant in an alien environment over many generations in spite of grammatical changes and slang and foreign intrusions. This latter case you deny to have even been possible.

Look Karl, I am not out to convince you that you are wrong and I am right. I simply have tried, to put forward arguments and scenarios to demonstrate that it is impossible to assert with confidence that there were no jews left at all in Judah during the 3 waves of deportatioms, and that there were no jews after the exile that were speaking roughly the same vernacular hebrew that their parents had spoken before the exile. I believe that this is a highly unlikely conclusion and that there is no evidence at all anywhere to say that this was the reality. My main objection to your comments is that you can not prove this at all. An absence of the documents you require does not prove the opposite point. And I did say that in most ancient languages there were only official records left to us and by your method of reasoning an absence of vernacular Sumerian precludes any notion that a market place Sumerian was spoken. Or a market place akkadian, or a market place Goth language or a market place Norse language in the 5th to 9th centuries, and the list is endless.

I would like if I may to take an example from Irish Hstory. The Irish language was in serious decline around the 19th century, and despite the Scots, vikings and Normans (who were not English at all) all migrating and over-taking the land, the Irish language remained intact. Then in recent years there has been a serious effort to revive the Irish language but it is estimated that there are still only pockets in Galway and the far north west and in the far west peninsulars where communites speak Irish and about 10% of the whole of Ireland, the fact that a small group of people have always been steadfast resolute to maintain a sense of individuality and national identity based on their past is a testament to the human spirit that would have prevailed in many of the exiles and those that returned. Just as today a small minority of parents insist on speaking Irish at home and taliking Irish to their children because they want them to never forget where they come from, so too would many Jewsih parents have done exactly the same. But I insist moreso, since the Irish culture has never ever been united in purpose in the same way that the Israelite culture was, despite the idol worship and materialism and murder and greed that is a common factor in all civilisations, there are always a remnant who decline the influences of foreign attributes and manners and customs. And the remnant I refer to in exile are probably that group of people found, as I tried to mention earlier, found in Jeremiah 24: 2-8 - a group that were not included in God's wrath. Not all those in exile suffered, many had farms and communities and would have had a strong sense of identity,

EDIT: I was very very surprised to find this book in PDF, that I did not expect so here you go Karl.
http://www.yorku.ca/kweiser/courses/622 ... illos1.pdf

Chris watts
kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by kwrandolph »

Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am
So far, there has been no indication of Hebrew usage that required that Hebrew be the language of the street and in the market. A learned second language suffices for these uses.
Grasping at straws? Well one can still breathe underwater with one of those!

Saenz-Badillos provides enough Evidence/analysis to conclude that there was still a spoken market language hebrew up to at least 200 AD,
Hebrew never ceased to be a spoken language. The question is, when did it cease to be the spoken everyday language of Jews used on the street and in the market?
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am therefore you show contempt.
I don’t think I show contempt, rather strong skepticism. He contradicts other sources of information.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am If he had provided evidence to the contrary I would have agreed with that also, so I am not seeking a side on this. I am just against irrational ways of thinking that's all.

You have sufficient evidence from various sources both in written historical form and circumstantial and then there is my favourite form of evidence, the "Bleedin Obvious" but you prefer to interpret that evidence in a manner that kills any possibility of doubt that you may have to re-consider your perspective.
I originally took the position that Hebrew continued to be the language of the street and market, but it was the data that caused me to change my mind. First it was the data from the first century that shows that Aramaic was the daily language in Judea. Then the data from the Bible shows that Hebrew was not the language of the street and market. Then the data from modern loss of language by immigrant groups, showing the mechanism of how daily use of the languages are lost. Then you can’t ignore the evidence of Daniel, that his writing half his book in Aramaic, in spite of him being a native speaker of Hebrew, indicates that Aramaic was already becoming the main language spoken among Jews at his time. The data changed my mind. The final nail in the coffin for me was to read Waltke & O’Connor’s description of DSS Hebrew grammar, a description showing that the use of the verbs had changed from a semitic use to an Indo-European use. That evidence of such a major change is evidence that Hebrew was a learned, second language.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am And seriously Karl, a nation having spoken a language over a thousand years that language became extinct and then in a twinkle of a moment they have to re-learn it as a second language?
How many times do I have to repeat myself that the language did not become extinct?
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am NUTS and double nuts!
Talk about showing contempt!
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am Not possible by any stretching of the imagination, and this is certainly grasping at Egyptian reeds. There is not a shred of indication that this happened. Saenz-Badillos makes it clear that while aramaic was certainly a language widely employed and spoken, especially in the North of Israel, he shows how in Judea this was not the case, that the vernacular was retained there can be no doubt.
What evidences does he provide that is strong enough to override evidences from other sources?
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am I know one can lose a language in one generation, but I also know that a language can remain vibrant in an alien environment over many generations in spite of grammatical changes and slang and foreign intrusions. This latter case you deny to have even been possible.
No I don’t. Rather it takes special conditions for it to be possible. When Israel was in Egypt, those conditions were met. From the time Joshua invaded Canaan to the Exile, those conditions were met for Judah. But the Exile changed those conditions such that the people were no longer socially and linguistically isolated from the majority society that surrounded them.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am Look Karl, I am not out to convince you that you are wrong and I am right. I simply have tried, to put forward arguments and scenarios to demonstrate that it is impossible to assert with confidence that there were no jews left at all in Judah during the 3 waves of deportatioms,
You contradict Jeremiah in that claim. Jeremiah recounts that there was a final deportation that took the remaining Jews to Egypt. If your sources claim that Jeremiah, and by extension the Bible, is a liar, I don’t go along with that.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am and that there were no jews after the exile that were speaking roughly the same vernacular hebrew that their parents had spoken before the exile.
Wait a minute. You’re talking about grandparents, if not great-grandparents, not parents. The parents grew up among a majority Aramaic speaking milieu with Aramaic speaking playmates.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am I believe that this is a highly unlikely conclusion and that there is no evidence at all anywhere to say that this was the reality. My main objection to your comments is that you can not prove this at all. An absence of the documents you require does not prove the opposite point.
Since when is Daniel, Ezra and Nehemiah “absence of documents”?
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am And I did say that in most ancient languages there were only official records left to us and by your method of reasoning an absence of vernacular Sumerian precludes any notion that a market place Sumerian was spoken. Or a market place akkadian, or a market place Goth language or a market place Norse language in the 5th to 9th centuries, and the list is endless.

I would like if I may to take an example from Irish Hstory. The Irish language was in serious decline around the 19th century, and despite the Scots, vikings and Normans (who were not English at all) all migrating and over-taking the land, the Irish language remained intact.
The Vikings and Normans largely stayed in the cities, though the Normans suppressed the teachings of Patrick to make Ireland Roman Catholic. The Scots made a larger impression by immigrating in large numbers to Northern Ireland. But the Irish countryside was largely untouched, hence the Irish language remained.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am Then in recent years there has been a serious effort to revive the Irish language but it is estimated that there are still only pockets in Galway and the far north west and in the far west peninsulars where communites speak Irish and about 10% of the whole of Ireland, the fact that a small group of people have always been steadfast resolute to maintain a sense of individuality and national identity based on their past is a testament to the human spirit that would have prevailed in many of the exiles and those that returned.
You make an assumption in the absence of evidence.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am Just as today a small minority of parents insist on speaking Irish at home and taliking Irish to their children because they want them to never forget where they come from, so too would many Jewsih parents have done exactly the same. But I insist moreso, since the Irish culture has never ever been united in purpose in the same way that the Israelite culture was, despite the idol worship and materialism and murder and greed that is a common factor in all civilisations, there are always a remnant who decline the influences of foreign attributes and manners and customs. And the remnant I refer to in exile are probably that group of people found, as I tried to mention earlier, found in Jeremiah 24: 2-8 - a group that were not included in God's wrath.
This passage describes a situation before the final deportation. They were included in God’s wrath, which is why they ended up in Egypt.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am Not all those in exile suffered, many had farms and communities and would have had a strong sense of identity,
But that doesn’t help their grandchildren retain the language.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am EDIT: I was very very surprised to find this book in PDF, that I did not expect so here you go Karl.
http://www.yorku.ca/kweiser/courses/622 ... illos1.pdf

Chris watts
Well, on the first page of his 200+ page book, he starts out contradicting the Biblical record. So how much can I trust him in reading the rest of the book?

Karl W. Randolph.
talmid56
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by talmid56 »

Karl,

Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the survival of vernacular Hebrew question. That’s fine. You feel I’m grasping at straws and misreading evidence. I feel that you are disregarding evidence because it does not fit your views. It’s okay if we don’t agree. I would suggest, however, that you may want to look further at sources like Saenz-Badillos to see if they have some valid evidence, rather than dismiss them out of hand. The fact that he may not accept the Biblical record, in itself, does not necessarily preclude him from having some valid arguments or evidence to present on the language question. The majority of OT scholars for some time now have accepted views of the inspiration and historicity of the Bible, and theological views of it that you and I would disagree with. That does not necessarily disqualify them when they talk about the Hebrew language and its uses in the Tanak. It depends on how they handle the language. Similarly, when dealing with the Greek New Testament, I profoundly disagree with William Barclay’s theology, but find him helpful sometimes on the uses of certain Greek terms. To a lesser extent this is true with me and A.T. Robertson. He and I don’t see eye to eye on theology at times. But, as a Greek expert, he is always worth a look. His Word Pictures in the Greek New Testament, for instance, is a very helpful tool, as is his large Greek grammar.

What I’m getting at here is, truth is truth regardless of where you find it. No matter who says it, if it is true, accept it. The wise man changes his mind from time to time when it is warranted. Now, I am not familiar with Saenz-Badillos’ work. I hadn’t heard of it until Christ referenced it in his posts. But, I am going to read the extract he provided to see for myself what it suggests. If his material presents good evidence against my view, then I may reconsider it. That’s how scholarship, in the best sense of the term, should work.

And, it should be noted that arguments from silence or from the supposed lack of something are not always valid. The absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. We see this in archaeology all the time. Hostile critics of the Biblical record say that because a certain person or event has not been verified by archaeology, or by interpretations of certain finds, that the Bible is wrong in what it says about the case. Then later on evidence turns up that vindicates the Biblical record. It could well be that this applies to the language question, although I feel that I have presented sufficient evidence to support my views. As for the DSS, the Hebrew has some differences and shows Aramaic influence. On this we agree. However, that does not preclude the possibility that it was still a vernacular, market and home language in my view. But, have it your way.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
Chris Watts
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by Chris Watts »

KARL WROTE : Then you can’t ignore the evidence of Daniel, that his writing half his book in Aramaic, in spite of him being a native speaker of Hebrew, indicates that Aramaic was already becoming the main language spoken among Jews at his time.

No absolutely NO . The portions in Aramaic are there for a completely different reason, to address the Gentile world, while the Hebrew is there to address the Isaraelite world. Daniel 2:4 to 7:28 is not there proving anything you say, it is there for prophetic and literary reasons. I have written two pieces of prose and in one I included a section in German, does that mean anything other than I am addressing a specific audience for literary reasons or that English is not my main language?

Also Saenz-Badillos makes a hugely valuable point that Hebraists today share the majority view that Aramaic in scripture is not proof that Hebrew was lost, he makes references to many books, but brings up the aramaic in Job - the oldest book. He makes an observation if I remember correctly from Isaiah 36:11, and demonstrates that it is highly likely that the poor and the less educated classes in the exile probably could not understand Aramaic, now this I do find possible and is new to me, but it is possible having read that portion in Isaiah 36:11


KARL WROTE : But the Exile changed those conditions such that the people were no longer socially and linguistically isolated from the majority society that surrounded them.

Prove this. I can prove that it was highly likely more than you could prove the opposite, by taking examples from various minorities in todays society.

KARL WROTE : The Vikings and Normans largely stayed in the cities, though the Normans suppressed the teachings of Patrick to make Ireland Roman Catholic. The Scots made a larger impression by immigrating in large numbers to Northern Ireland. But the Irish countryside was largely untouched, hence the Irish language remained.

No the country side was just as touched as the early dwellings and large towns, I have the history books.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am Then in recent years there has been a serious effort to revive the Irish language but it is estimated that there are still only pockets in Galway and the far north west and in the far west peninsulars where communites speak Irish and about 10% of the whole of Ireland, the fact that a small group of people have always been steadfast resolute to maintain a sense of individuality and national identity based on their past is a testament to the human spirit that would have prevailed in many of the exiles and those that returned.
KARL WROTE : You make an assumption in the absence of evidence.

Again my history books on Ireland say otherwise. Plus todays newspapers and google will confirm this. Not to mention that my statement here agrees with my favourite form of evidence "the bleedin Obvious'
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am Just as today a small minority of parents insist on speaking Irish at home and taliking Irish to their children because they want them to never forget where they come from, so too would many Jewsih parents have done exactly the same. But I insist moreso, since the Irish culture has never ever been united in purpose in the same way that the Israelite culture was, despite the idol worship and materialism and murder and greed that is a common factor in all civilisations, there are always a remnant who decline the influences of foreign attributes and manners and customs. And the remnant I refer to in exile are probably that group of people found, as I tried to mention earlier, found in Jeremiah 24: 2-8 - a group that were not included in God's wrath.
KARL WROTE : This passage describes a situation before the final deportation. They were included in God’s wrath, which is why they ended up in Egypt.

No Jeremiah 24, did you read the WHOLE chapter? Now you make God Himself untrue here, for God says here that He will do them good in Babylon, IN BABYLON, not Egypt. And can you not imagine that this would have been a source of comfort to Jeremiah and the people to whom he might have told, that whereas there are always the innocents that are caught up in the trajedies that happen to the guilty, that the righteous sometimes suffer with the unrighteous through no fault of their own? Get inside this man's heart for a moment and realise that he would have prayed a prayer asking God about those who were not guilty of the crimes that the majority were guilty of, and God comforted him with this response, don't you think this a likely scenario Karl?
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 am Not all those in exile suffered, many had farms and communities and would have had a strong sense of identity,
KARL WROTE : But that doesn’t help their grandchildren retain the language.

But it also does not mean the opposite; plus you are certainly making an assumption here Karl

chris watts
Last edited by Chris Watts on Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Chris Watts
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Re: Stand-Alone Perfect and Imperfect examples with identical 'time' meanings

Post by Chris Watts »

talmid56 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:44 am What I’m getting at here is, truth is truth regardless of where you find it. No matter who says it, if it is true, accept it. The wise man changes his mind from time to time when it is warranted. Now, I am not familiar with Saenz-Badillos’ work. I hadn’t heard of it until Christ referenced it in his
Firstly Talmid, I am honoured by the title you gave me though I doubt I could ever live up to it. :lol:

Yes I agree, a deep dive amongst a hundred oysters before you find that one pearl.

Chris watts
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