Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

[Jason Hare]

Shalom, Chris.

1. Hallo Jordan, thankyou for your reply. I would lie to make sure I understand this absolutely. Therefore would you say that around 700BC the Language spoken by those referred to as Cush in scripture would be as different from the Egyptian and Hebrew language as say German is from Russian. In other words there was no relation between them and utterly unintelligable to an Egyptian and Hebrew speaker? So they could not be compared to say the similarity between Dutch and German? I know I added in Hebrew but just wanting to be clear.

Yigal Levin wrote on B-Hebrew fifteen years ago: “The Midianites are absolutely unknown except from the Bible. We’re not even sure where they lived. We certainly have no way of knowing their language. We can guess that they were Arabs, and spoke an Arabic dialect, but even that’s just a guess.” (Source)

How can we make comparisons between languages that left written evidence and languages that are complete speculation? I would assume that Midian had some kind of Semitic language, whereas Egyptian language was not Semitic (at least, not at that time). It would certainly not be similar to the case of German and Dutch (or Spanish and Portuguese).

2. On a side note, Moses obviously had a relationship with his Father-in-law who was a Midianite priest, his first wife a Midianite,and there is evidence both scripturally and extra-biblical to make the assumption that Cush and Midian shared a common culture and language and were closely related in that much of the population could have been Cushite. If you ask for evidence I will have to spend a few days looking it all up because it was something I read about many months ago and it was a surprise to read this.

As far as I’m aware, Midian is known only from the Bible (מִדְיָן‎ or Μαδιάμ) and Qurʾān (مَدْيَن‎). What extra-biblical evidence are you referring to?

Jason

[Chris Watts]

Hallo Jordan, thankyou for your reply.
<snip>
Appreciating the help here - thankyou.

It seems that you’re thinking in German (because of the “hallo” instead of “hello,” much like I tell people “shalom” even when they don’t necessarily speak Hebrew), so I just wanted to point out in passing that “thank you” is two words in English; “thankyou” is a mistake in formal writing. I know that it’s just danke in German, but just to make your English that much better, separate those words out. I hope I’m not being too picky.

Well thank you for that. Mmm...as a verbal phrase yes. Pedantic and picky? Maybe for some but I don't mind so I write a thankyou note to say thank you. By the way I was thinking in Dutch since spelling Hallo the English way Hello seems odd to me as does pronouncing IKEA as IKEEA whereas we pronounce it EEKAYA, so much nicer methinks.

[Chris Watts]

Shalom, Chris.

1. Hallo Jordan, thankyou for your reply. I would lie to make sure I understand this absolutely. Therefore would you say that around 700BC the Language spoken by those referred to as Cush in scripture would be as different from the Egyptian and Hebrew language as say German is from Russian. In other words there was no relation between them and utterly unintelligable to an Egyptian and Hebrew speaker? So they could not be compared to say the similarity between Dutch and German? I know I added in Hebrew but just wanting to be clear.

Yigal Levin wrote on B-Hebrew fifteen years ago: “The Midianites are absolutely unknown except from the Bible. We’re not even sure where they lived. We certainly have no way of knowing their language. We can guess that they were Arabs, and spoke an Arabic dialect, but even that’s just a guess.” (Source)

How can we make comparisons between languages that left written evidence and languages that are complete speculation? I would assume that Midian had some kind of Semitic language, whereas Egyptian language was not Semitic (at least, not at that time). It would certainly not be similar to the case of German and Dutch (or Spanish and Portuguese).

2. On a side note, Moses obviously had a relationship with his Father-in-law who was a Midianite priest, his first wife a Midianite,and there is evidence both scripturally and extra-biblical to make the assumption that Cush and Midian shared a common culture and language and were closely related in that much of the population could have been Cushite. If you ask for evidence I will have to spend a few days looking it all up because it was something I read about many months ago and it was a surprise to read this.

As far as I’m aware, Midian is known only from the Bible (מִדְיָן‎ or Μαδιάμ) and Qurʾān (مَدْيَن‎). What extra-biblical evidence are you referring to?

Jason

AS I mentioned I will have to dig out the references, please give me time. Though one word about Midian only being mentioned in scripture, I take scriptural documentation as authentic as any other extra-biblical document since even non-scriptural documents are given an authority that I personally feel is denied scriptural documentation on occasions. But I sincerely hope I have not read into your comment here something you did not intend? Nevertheless I will try to find where I read all about Midian and Cush. I am aware that Cush never really had any fixed geographical boundary throughout its history, that is of course until the 19th century when commntators started to refer to Cush as Ethiopia. And thank you for the Link.

Kind Regards
Chris watts

[jordan17182]

1. Hallo Jordan, thankyou for your reply. I would lie to make sure I understand this absolutely. Therefore would you say that around 700BC the Language spoken by those referred to as Cush in scripture would be as different from the Egyptian and Hebrew language as say German is from Russian. In other words there was no relation between them and utterly unintelligable to an Egyptian and Hebrew speaker? So they could not be compared to say the similarity between Dutch and German? I know I added in Hebrew but just wanting to be clear.

The real problem with answering your question more specifically is that there is not easy way to identify a single "Cushite" language. From the 3rd century BCE there was a written language called Meroitic which appears to be related to the Nilo-Saharan phylum. The relationship here is more like Finnish and German - no discernable relationship whatsoever. If the language was from the Cushitic branch of the Afroasiatic phylum the most similar to Egyptian is probably Beja, which is still not mutually intelligable with Egyptian (Best case: German - Russian). If the language was from the southern branch of the Semitic languages (e.g., Ge'ez) then it still would be very different compared with Egyptian, but I think it unlikely that it would be South Semitic.

2. On a side note, Moses obviously had a relationship with his Father-in-law who was a Midianite priest, his first wife a Midianite,and there is evidence both scripturally and extra-biblical to make the assumption that Cush and Midian shared a common culture and language and were closely related in that much of the population could have been Cushite. If you ask for evidence I will have to spend a few days looking it all up because it was something I read about many months ago and it was a surprise to read this.

It has been a long time since I studied the archaeology of the Arabian peninsula, but as I recall the region generally associated with the Midians is the northern half, or so, of the western Red Sea coast. If they were interacting with anyone on the African side of the Red Sea they would have been the Medjay (who would not have spoken a language mutually intelligable with Egyptian or any Semitic language), or a group whose identity and language is lost.

I'd be interested in what sort of evidence there is for linguistic unity between Cush and Midian. I haven't read on the issue before.

Jordan Furutani

[Chris Watts]

I'd be interested in what sort of evidence there is for linguistic unity between Cush and Midian. I haven't read on the issue before.

Jordan Furutani

Hallo Jordan, thank you for yur reply. To answer the question above I can only offer what I have discovered and at the present interpret the following as clues. But firstly, it seems quite clear that Cush had a very mobile boundary, geographically fluid. As for the languages/dialects spoken between Cushites and Midianites I would raise the following points:

1. Taking into consideration that there were likely various dialects spoken within specific geographical areas of what was then known as Cush as you have made clear and thankyou, allowing also for the fact that Cush included modern day Eritrea and Sudan and present day Ethiopia of course. Taking all this into consideration I think that when we read the following:

2. The Lord aroused against Jehoram the hostility of the Philistines and of the Arabs who lived near the Cushites. 17 They attacked Judah, invaded it and carried off all the goods found in the king’s palace, together with his sons and wives. 2 chronicles 21:16. (These Arabs could not have been on the African side)

2. I saw the tents of Cushan in distress, the dwellings of Midian in anguish. Hab 3:7. (I take this as a sort of similarity rather than two seperate and distinct countries)

3. If Zipporah was the wife that Miriam argued against in numbers then we have a Cushite woman. Born and raised in the land of Midian. Being of Jethro's lineage would then mean another sort of interchanging beween the geographical concepts of Cush and Midian. That Cush extended beyond the borders of what we now call Sudan and Ethiopia and extending even to the East of Moab and Edom. The Midianites were a roaming pastoral people without question, perhaps with a central base, so to speak, in the Arabah region in line between the red sea, Timna and the dead sea.

The above therefore would lead to a natural conclusion that there was some basic similarity between at least one dialect of Cush and the Midianite language, even maybe identical?

I am no scholar on these issues so I am not presenting evidence for something rather just comments.

Chris watts

[jordan17182]

1. Taking into consideration that there were likely various dialects spoken within specific geographical areas of what was then known as Cush as you have made clear and thankyou, allowing also for the fact that Cush included modern day Eritrea and Sudan and present day Ethiopia of course.

I don't think that Cush could be interpreted as including modern Ethiopia and Eritriea prior to the last few centuries BCE at the earliest. The Egyptians would have called this area Punt. The Greeks call everything south of Egypt Ethiopia, the kings of Nubia (Modern North Sudan) who rule Egypt in Dynasty 25 are called Ethiopian Kings by Manetho.

2. The Lord aroused against Jehoram the hostility of the Philistines and of the Arabs who lived near the Cushites. 17 They attacked Judah, invaded it and carried off all the goods found in the king’s palace, together with his sons and wives. 2 chronicles 21:16. (These Arabs could not have been on the African side)

2. I saw the tents of Cushan in distress, the dwellings of Midian in anguish. Hab 3:7. (I take this as a sort of similarity rather than two seperate and distinct countries)

Contrary to this is Isa. 11.11 which has Cush third in a list which goes south from Egypt (Pathros is generally taken to be from the Egyptian pꜢ-tꜢ-rsy "Upper Egypt").
מֵאַשּׁ֨וּר וּמִמִּצְרַ֜יִם וּמִפַּתְרֹ֣וס וּמִכּ֗וּשׁ וּמֵעֵילָ֤ם וּמִשִּׁנְעָר֙ וּמֵ֣חֲמָ֔ת‬ וּמֵאִיֵּ֖י הַיָּֽם׃
"From Ashur, from Egypt, Patros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea." (Is 11:11b.)

Chronicles is very late, (even in a very literal reading) so I wouldn't think too much of its identifications as corresponding to the time written about. It is more likely an error for Cushan.

As far as Cushan is concerned it is possible that they are the group Ramesses III refers to as the qsn-rm who are in Northern Syria. Alternatively scholars seem to be of the opinion that there is a Cushan (or possibly Cush) which can connected directly and only with Midian.

3. If Zipporah was the wife that Miriam argued against in numbers then we have a Cushite woman. Born and raised in the land of Midian. Being of Jethro's lineage would then mean another sort of interchanging beween the geographical concepts of Cush and Midian. That Cush extended beyond the borders of what we now call Sudan and Ethiopia and extending even to the East of Moab and Edom. The Midianites were a roaming pastoral people without question, perhaps with a central base, so to speak, in the Arabah region in line between the red sea, Timna and the dead sea.

The above therefore would lead to a natural conclusion that there was some basic similarity between at least one dialect of Cush and the Midianite language, even maybe identical?

I am no scholar on these issues so I am not presenting evidence for something rather just comments.

Chris watts

[jordan17182]

1. Taking into consideration that there were likely various dialects spoken within specific geographical areas of what was then known as Cush as you have made clear and thankyou, allowing also for the fact that Cush included modern day Eritrea and Sudan and present day Ethiopia of course.

I don't think that Cush could be interpreted as including modern Ethiopia and Eritriea prior to the last few centuries BCE at the earliest. The Egyptians would have called this area Punt. The Greeks call everything south of Egypt Ethiopia, the kings of Nubia (Modern North Sudan) who rule Egypt in Dynasty 25 are called Ethiopian Kings by Manetho.

2. The Lord aroused against Jehoram the hostility of the Philistines and of the Arabs who lived near the Cushites. 17 They attacked Judah, invaded it and carried off all the goods found in the king’s palace, together with his sons and wives. 2 chronicles 21:16. (These Arabs could not have been on the African side)

2. I saw the tents of Cushan in distress, the dwellings of Midian in anguish. Hab 3:7. (I take this as a sort of similarity rather than two seperate and distinct countries)

It is more likely that this is a reference to some other group, perhaps the 2 Chron. reference is an error for Cushan. I have read into it a bit and the scholastic opinion seems to be that there is another Cush which can be connected with Midian.

From the AYB on Habakkuk

Kushan. This is the only known occurrence of this form. This is certainly the Cush associated with Midian (and Moses), not Ethiopia or any other place.
Francis I. Andersen, Habakkuk: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, AYB 25 (2008), 312

The (now quite old) ICC notes that:

Herodotus considered all the land east of the Nile Arabia (II. 8, 12, 15, 19), which could thus be described as beside the Cushites.
Edward Curtis and Albert Madsen, ICC Chronicles (1910), 417.

The AYBD suggests:

Cushan could be either an alternative name for the Midianites, or a subgroup of them.
David W. Baker, “Cushan (Place),”, AYBD (1992), 1220.

A good summary of older scholarship appears to be:
A. Malamat, “Cushan Rishathaim and the Decline of the Near East around 1200 B. C.,” JNES 13, no. 4 (1954): 231–42.

A clear example where Cush is African (as in Egyptian usage) is Isa. 11:11. Patros is from the Egyptian pꜢ-tꜢ-rsy "Upper Egypt" (literally translates as "The southland"). There is thus a clear progression from north to south for Egypt -> Patros -> Cush

מֵאַשּׁ֨וּר וּמִמִּצְרַ֜יִם וּמִפַּתְרֹ֣וס וּמִכּ֗וּשׁ וּמֵעֵילָ֤ם וּמִשִּׁנְעָר֙ וּמֵ֣חֲמָ֔ת‬ וּמֵאִיֵּ֖י הַיָּֽם׃
"From Ashur, from Egypt, from Patros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea." (Isa. 11:11b.)

[Chris Watts]

Hallo Jordan

1. Comments appreciated. I have noted many of the commentators on Habakkuk and am more inclined to side with the idea that if Habakkuk was writing 7th century BC at a time just before the Babylonian conquests over the Assyrian empire and at a time when Cush had control of Egypt (25th Dynasty as you pointed out), then noting also that the Babylonians were not able to conquer Egypt and therefore the African Cush, I assume a strong connection between the Arabian Cush and Midian to be referenced by Habakkuk. Thus goes my reasoning.

2. I must confess to another subtke influence when deciding upon the Geographical reaches of Cush when referenced in different parts of scripture, for example I admit that Isaiah 11:11 would definitely refer to the lower Egypt and sudan area. So there is no confusion for me here. However I retain the idea from Genesis 10 over the Geneology of Cush and his ancestors and descendants, and couple that with Genesis 2:13 and the river Gihon, why would it compass the whole land of Cush one should ask, why use Cush and not a proper Geographical region say Babylonia or Persia or Akkadia? That some commentators have identified Gihon with the Nile has been successfully refuted as absurd. The geography of Cush is extremely fluid and this leads me to think in terms of a modern idea: If I were to say, as a Visigoth, let us conquer Rome and destroy her. Depending on context I could mean the city or the idea of what Rome represents. Or if I were to say the phrase : "... We will conquer beyond the rivers of Rome" Some would argue for the rivers in Northern Italy, or would I mean the Rhine and the Danube where lay the limits of Rome's influence? I think that there might be a Geographical concept at play in some scriptures as opposed to a geographical location. For example in Isaiah chapter18, I do read this less of a location and more of a Geographical concept, (I have much to elorate on this bit but that is too long for this thread).

I do not confess to understand everything rather in attempting to gather as much information as I possibly can from every resource I find I am left with certain convictions that simply slapping Cush and Ethiopia as one and the same identity in all the scriptures is very wrong indeed.

I know that you have been very objective in your comments and refreshing and I appreciate this, thankyou.

Chris Watts

[kwrandolph]

… and couple that with Genesis 2:13 and the river Gihon, why would it compass the whole land of Cush one should ask, why use Cush and not a proper Geographical region say Babylonia or Persia or Akkadia? …

You can’t use Genesis 2 as a geological reference, because the flood changed the whole face of the earth. When Noah and his descendants descended from the ark following the flood, they named some places with familiar names that they knew from before the flood, but the names didn’t correspond to the same geographical features and places.

On a related note, tomorrow (October 31) America, and some other places, will celebrate Halloween. Two days later (November 2), Mexico, and Mexicans in the U.S., will celebrate El Dia de los Muertos. According to the book The Worship of the Dead: The Origin and Nature of Pagan Idolatry and its Bearing Upon the Early History of Egypt and Babylonia by Colonel John Garnier, the day is a very ancient memorial chosen to commemorate those who died during the world-wide flood. World wide, almost everywhere the flood is remembered, this day of remembrance of the dead is also marked on about the same day of the year.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Chris Watts]

I culled this from a wikpedia article and was wondering if this has been confirmed elsewhere as being true:

Taharqa, under the name "Tearco the Aethiopian", was described by the Ancient Greek historian Strabo. Strabo mentioned Taharqa in a list of other notable conquerors (Cyrus the Great, Xerxes, Sesotris) and mentioned that these princes had undertaken "expeditions to lands far remote."[47] Strabo mentions Taharqa as having "Advanced as far as Europe",[48] and (citing Megasthenes), even as far as the Pillars of Hercules in Spain:[49] Similarly, in 1534 the Muslim scholar Ibn-l-Khattib al-Makkary wrote an account of Taharqa's "establishment of a garrison in the south of Spain in approximately 702 BC."[50]

However, Sesostris, the Aegyptian, he adds, and Tearco the Aethiopian advanced as far as Europe; and Nabocodrosor, who enjoyed greater repute among the Chaldaeans than Heracles, led an army even as far as the Pillars. Thus far, he says, also Tearco went.

— Strabo, Geographia, XV.1.6.[51]
The two snakes in the crown of pharaoh Taharqa show that he was the king of both the lands of Egypt and Nubia.

Chris watts