Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

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Chris Watts
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Chris Watts »

Jason Hare wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:35 pm
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:54 pm I would have thought that much of what Moses wrote in Genesis, the creation, the geneologies, Abraham etc would have been handed down to him in one of three ways OR a combination of all three:
1. By other documents
2. By word of mouth generation to generation
3. Twiddling his thumbs and dreaming up stories to fill in the blanks
It’s the dismissiveness of these statements that I find troubling. It is not the case that it either happened as you think or it was silly. “Twiddling his thumbs and dreaming up stories to fill in the blanks” is dismissive of any alternative to your way of thinking. Do you not think that’s so?
Well jason you did not answer my question...nevertheless I will answer yours. Point Number three above was written, not to dismiss your belief, but as humorous way of acknowledging the fact that what is termed mythological, is for all intense and purposes a story, a fable, something that probably had its roots in some obscure fact or reality but which the narrative has become so distorted and filled with embellishment so as to make it improbable.

I tend to use a little humour sometimes to state a reality in the belief that what I am really saying will be seen for what it is. As I did with 'Ee-Oor'!

And exactly how long must I go on defending my comments as if I started all this with offending language? You challenged me remember and I would like an answer to my question in my last post...please.

Chris watts
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Jason Hare
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Jason Hare »

Chris Watts wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:54 pmI want to know why my remark here... ignited a contentious response from you?
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:54 pm2. By word of mouth generation to generation
<snip>
So why was number two above a problem?
Chris Watts wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:58 pmI would like an answer to my question in my last post...please.
To which?

The first question that set off my thinking came as a result of simple pronouncement about timespans between Adam and Moses, your suggestion that Adam was actually writing texts to transmit on to people like Noah, your conclusion that the only reasonable and acceptable explanation is that Moses wrote the Torah, etc. It’s just a compiling of myth upon supposition upon more myth. None of this can be substantiated, and your response is simply to say that anyone who doesn’t believe in the literalness of these myths simply has no appreciation for the Bible and “consider[s] the scriptures to be nothing....”

So, yes, I question your ability to be critical in your thinking. The opposite of critical is credulous or believing. It cannot be the case that you simply believe every word without taking anything else into account. Even the Bible doesn’t relate to itself that way. Exodus 20:4 says that God is “a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of fathers upon [their] sons, upon the third and fourth generation with respect to my enemies” (אֵ֣ל קַנָּ֔א פֹּ֠קֵד עֲוֺ֨ן אָבֹ֧ת עַל־בָּנִ֛ים עַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֥ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִ֖ים לְשֹֽׂנְאָֽי), whereas Ezekiel 18:20 contends that “a son will not bear in the iniquity of [his] father, nor a father in the iniquity of [his] son; the righteousness of the righteous man will be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will be upon him” (בֵּ֞ן לֹֽא־יִשָּׂ֣א ׀ בַּֽעֲוֺ֣ן הָאָ֗ב וְאָב֙ לֹ֤א יִשָּׂא֙ בַּֽעֲוֺ֣ן הַבֵּ֔ן צִדְקַ֤ת הַצַּדִּיק֙ עָלָ֣יו תִּֽהְיֶ֔ה וְרִשְׁעַ֥ת הָֽרָשָׁ֖ע עָלָ֥יו תִּֽהְיֶֽה). Does God visit the iniquity of the fathers upon their children, or will a son not share in the iniquity of his father? It seems that Ezekiel was setting the principle back, making one’s approach to God more individualistic and contradicting a principle of the Torah, establishing that no one will be held accountable for the sin of another person.

As a general rule, we are to focus on the language on this forum, not on how one interprets the text. Your posts are generally about how one should interpret various textual problems hyperliterally. Hyperliteralism isn’t the best way to approach the text of the Bible. It’s not how the text was written or intended to be read.
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kwrandolph
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by kwrandolph »

Chris Watts wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:01 am
As for literary evidence you will have to explain this one please since it would be fair for me to know what you are referring to.
I heard this in lectures, so I don’t have literary sources to show you.

There was a very ancient literary practice that went out of use before about 1500 BC where, instead of being at the beginning of a document, the title and author were mentioned at the end of the document. In Genesis we find this practice at the end of sections. The word used is תולדות with the meaning of “what is brought out” and giving the name of the author. תולדות in this context does not mean “generations”. The formula is used in places where there are no generations. The last section of Genesis lacks that formula.

The rest of what you wrote is just wild speculation and not worth answering.

Karl W. Randolph.
Chris Watts
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Chris Watts »

your suggestion that Adam was actually writing texts to transmit on to people like Noah
First of all Jason I never said this at all...I refuted it, it was Karl who brought this up not me
and your response is simply to say that anyone who doesn’t believe in the literalness of these myths simply has no appreciation for the Bible and “consider[s] the scriptures to be nothing....”
Secondly Jason I NEVER SAID THAT EITHER:

And as for this comment I made here below, I was TRYING to be CONCILLATORY, that is all, I was not insuting nor saying what I thought except the word of mouth business. BUT a concillatory tone was what I treid to bring accross with a bit of humour........ :
I would have thought that much of what Moses wrote in Genesis, the creation, the geneologies, Abraham etc would have been handed down to him in one of three ways OR a combination of all three:
1. By other documents
2. By word of mouth generation to generation
3. Twiddling his thumbs and dreaming up stories to fill in the blanks
We have gone from me suggesting and asking about the rivers of Cush and that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU have turned thiswhole dialogue into a personal complaint because you KNOW that I believe thi sis God's word and you do not lke literalism. NOT BECAUSE I have voluntarily made any theological statements at all other than to ANSWER as gently as possible YOUR ignited emotional response.

I have NOT attacked anyone's perspective as you suggest and have simply tried desperately to maintain a courteous and on the topic response. It is YOU who has had a raw nerve touched by your own emotional reactions to the way that I have posted.

As far as I am now concerned I will no longer be on this forum while you are an administrator. No loss to you or anyone else but I quit this forum.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Jason Hare »

Chris Watts wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:36 amFirst of all Jason I never said this at all...I refuted it, it was Karl who brought this up not me
<snip>
Secondly Jason I NEVER SAID THAT EITHER:
If that’s the case, then I completely misread what you wrote because I was quoting your words. Perhaps it’s something lost in translation. I don’t understand how you are not the one saying the things that are in your posts. Maybe you’re saying them ironically?
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:36 amAnd as for this comment I made here below, I was TRYING to be CONCILLATORY, that is all, I was not insuting nor saying what I thought except the word of mouth business. BUT a concillatory tone was what I treid to bring accross with a bit of humour........ :
Humor is hard to convey in written communication. What you apparently intended to be funny, I felt was insulting. I won’t quote what you have written back to you, since you apparently aren’t the one saying the things that you’re writing, and when I try to get clarification and explain why I read what you write the way that I do, I’m read as attacking you.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:36 amI have NOT attacked anyone's perspective as you suggest and have simply tried desperately to maintain a courteous and on the topic response. It is YOU who has had a raw nerve touched by your own emotional reactions to the way that I have posted.
I’ve attempted to show you exactly the parts of your posts that I found insulting to anyone who doesn’t hold your personal interpretations. I have tried to show what I found to be bothersome. Then you told me that you didn’t say the things that I quoted back to you. That confuses me. I clearly cannot understand what you write, if that’s the case.
Chris Watts wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:36 amAs far as I am now concerned I will no longer be on this forum while you are an administrator. No loss to you or anyone else but I quit this forum.
This is what an emotional response looks like. There’s no sense in you leaving the forum over a conversation like this. All I’ve asked is that you try to be a bit more open toward the possibility that reality might be something other than what you already believe, that you should try to be exposed to other possible interpretations of the texts, and you’re acting like I’m calling you an idiot and trying to force you to leave the forum (that is, unless you are not the one saying that you’re quitting the forum, and I’m somehow not picking up on hidden humor again). It’s certainly not the case that I wish you were not on the forum. In fact, I hope that you change your mind and stay, but I’ll certainly need to find a way to somehow understand what you mean in spite of what you write.

Also, perhaps it was your great effort to maintain decorum that allowed me to miss just how personally you were being affected by our back-and-forth. I didn’t realize that you thought I was being offensive. I believe that I have a bit of undiagnosed autism and don’t pick up on all emotional clues, especially when written, but that’s no excuse. I apologize for thinking that this was more academic than personal.
Jason Hare
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason,
You asked about Ezekiel 18:20 saying that God won't punish the sons for what their fathers did, etc. compared to the other quotes that say God visits sins upon the next few generations. If you read Ezekiel 18:3, it says God won't do that anymore. I don't know if He really meant it that way, but that sounds like a change in policy. It could also mean that they won't die for the fathers' sins, but they will still be punished. It is hard to say.
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Chris,
I think Jason reads fast or something, so he missed that Karl said some things, and he accused you of saying those things. Personally, I was confused by your explanation. On one hand, you said that you believe that the Bible is the word of God, but you also said that Moses wrote down what he received as a tradition passed down from father to son. If you take the Bible literally, then you would believe that Moses wrote down what God said to write down.
You shouldn't quit. I quit discussing Biblical Hebrew here, but this topic isn't Biblical Hebrew, so I can discuss this here in my opinion.
I wasn't reading this discussion, but I read it to see what offended you, and your conversation with Jason was strange. I recommend not answering anyone who goes off topic from what you were trying to discuss. That way you can't end up in this wacky situation. I made the same mistake with Jason by answering some off-topic question he asked me about how I study Biblical Hebrew. By giving an honest answer, I got bombarded with criticism by him and others on this forum. The real answer is "no comment" if anyone tries to change the subject, especially to your personal opinions on anything. Just stick with facts and ignore everything else here.
P.S. Don't answer my question about your personal opinion about Moses and the tradition. I should not have asked and you should not answer.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Chris,
Being friendly and kidding around doesn't work here. Just discuss your topic and that is it. If you want a friendly conversation, call a friend or a relative. I am not trying to be mean to you. I think it is unfortunate, but it appears to be how things work here.
Kenneth Greifer
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Jason Hare
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:58 am Jason,
You asked about Ezekiel 18:20 saying that God won't punish the sons for what their fathers did, etc. compared to the other quotes that say God visits sins upon the next few generations. If you read Ezekiel 18:3, it says God won't do that anymore. I don't know if He really meant it that way, but that sounds like a change in policy. It could also mean that they won't die for the fathers' sins, but they will still be punished. It is hard to say.
Yes, that’s how I understand it, too. Ezekiel saw himself as changing the way things had been up until then. I imagine that prophets felt that they had that authority, to bring in new revelations and new commandments from God (or ways to relate to God). Kinda reminds one of the “you have heard it said..., but I tell you...” statements of Jesus. That is how prophets often saw themselves, as making relevant changes to attempt to bring about some kind of cultural revolution. At least, that’s how I read them.
Jason Hare
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Jason Hare
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Re: Egyptian and Ethiopian Languages

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:15 pm Chris,
Being friendly and kidding around doesn't work here. Just discuss your topic and that is it. If you want a friendly conversation, call a friend or a relative. I am not trying to be mean to you. I think it is unfortunate, but it appears to be how things work here.
I think it’s one of my problems. I think of concepts rather than the people making the claims. When someone says something, I think of where that line of thinking would lead and what could possibly be used to support it, and then I respond. I don’t tend to think of how people feel about it, since emotions aren’t really my strong suit. I had no idea that Chris was getting frustrated to the point of leaving the forum. I was just thinking of the things that I was reading and responding to them.
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