what are the differences between these pronunciation of simple shva

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ralph
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what are the differences between these pronunciation of simple shva

Post by ralph »

i'm not asking about biblical hebrew here..

but what are the differences between these pronunciation of simple shva

For example, in benching(jewish grace after meals), the first word of the last paragraph, is Y-ru.

In school, they taught an "ashkefardi"/modern israeli mix, and I learnt that the vocal simple shva is pronounced uh like the uh in banana buh-nana.

Though when we sung grace after meals, where the first word of the last paragraph is Y-ru, we would say Yiru. Though we were once corrected, that it's Yuh-ru. (often people learn that that vowel is uh but are surprised to hear themselves say Yiru on the first word of the last paragraph, it's something one picks up from others, maybe israelis in school).

Is Yiru how sephardim do it? Or how modern israeli does it?

I'm wondering what the difference is in pronunciation of vocal simple shva, in modern israeli, sephardi, and ashkenazi?

(As for how it is pronounced in academic understanding, that's for my other thread that also asks re its ancient greek transliteration)

Thanks
Ralph Zak
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Jason Hare
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Re: what are the differences between these pronunciation of simple shva

Post by Jason Hare »

ralph wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:30 pm In school, they taught an "ashkefardi"/modern israeli mix, and I learnt that the vocal simple shva is pronounced uh like the uh in banana buh-nana.
The sound “uh” is foreign to Hebrew. Teachers in America like to say that sheva is pronounced like “uh,” but you will hear no one do that in fluent Hebrew.
ralph wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:30 pm Though when we sung grace after meals, where the first word of the last paragraph is Y-ru, we would say Yiru. Though we were once corrected, that it's Yuh-ru. (often people learn that that vowel is uh but are surprised to hear themselves say Yiru on the first word of the last paragraph, it's something one picks up from others, maybe israelis in school).

Is Yiru how sephardim do it? Or how modern israeli does it?
You will hear people say Yiru- sometimes, but it’s absolutely not יִרוּ־ and shouldn’t be pronounced that way. The proper practice is to read this vocal sheva with the same sound as segol.

I use the pronunciation of Israel.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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ralph
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Re: what are the differences between these pronunciation of simple shva

Post by ralph »

Jason wrote: I use the pronunciation of Israel.
You mean you use the Modern Hebrew pronunciation. That said, i've included an example from Modern Israeli hebrew below, and they say it like I mentioned. uh like banana. And not like you say (eh/segol).

ralph wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:30 pm In school, they taught an "ashkefardi"/modern israeli mix, and I learnt that the vocal simple shva is pronounced uh like the uh in banana buh-nana.
Jason wrote: The sound “uh” is foreign to Hebrew.
You aren't really considering the question which considers Ashkenazi pronunciation, Sephardi pronuncation and Modern Israeli pronunciation.
Jason wrote: Teachers in America like to say that sheva is pronounced like “uh,” but you will hear no one do that in fluent Hebrew.
I said uh as in Banana. There are many fluent Hebrew speakers that say it, but maybe it's not Modern Israeli pronuncation of Shva. So maybe you can only speak for Modern Israeli pronunciation, but that doesn't mean that other pronunciation don't exist. (Also, I question that re modern hebrew pronunciation, see below)

ralph wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:30 pm Though when we sung grace after meals, where the first word of the last paragraph is Y-ru, we would say Yiru. Though we were once corrected, that it's Yuh-ru. (often people learn that that vowel is uh but are surprised to hear themselves say Yiru on the first word of the last paragraph, it's something one picks up from others, maybe israelis in school).

Is Yiru how sephardim do it? Or how modern israeli does it?
Jason wrote: it’s absolutely not יִרוּ־
Look the title of the thread has the word Simple Shva.

What you wrote there is not a simple shva, you wrote a Chirik.

Nobody claims it is a Chirik. Just like nobody claims a shva is a segol.

One could discuss, as I did, whether it is pronounced like Chirik, and your view is it's not.

You might be able to answer how is a simple vocal shva pronounced in Modern Israeli hebrew, you write " the same sound as segol." OK. So you say it's pronounced like segol, not like Chirik, fine. Let's look into that..

Keeping the subject to Modern Israeli Hebrew since that's a pronunciation you have some familiarity with

I'm not sure sure about what you say re it being pronounced like a segol

Hebrew Pronunciation - Hebrew Vowels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrRuqF21myQ

2:38

She pronounces Muh-doo-ra She doesn't say Meh-doo-ra

So she doesn't do it like a segol (or even like a chirik), she does it like the uh in banana. Which is how I learnt it in school and how I was taught it when I had to do some leining way back,and is how it's done in many synagogues.

Interestingly in linguistics the shewa aka ə is pronounced like that uh in banana too. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/banana

So your statement that "you will hear no one do that in fluent Hebrew." is very incorrect. If you want to limit your statement to modern israeli pronunciation, then how would you explain that timeframe of that video I mentioned?

At 2:40-3:40 they mention three shva that looks to me like simple vocal shva, one that is eh, one that is uh.

How to Pronounce Hebrew Like a Native Speaker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyhiDDq0HDE

though i'm not quite sure when they do eh and when they do uh.
Ralph Zak
ducky
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Re: what are the differences between these pronunciation of simple shva

Post by ducky »

Hi,

I think, that you and Jason are talking about the same sound.
It doesn't matter how you/him write it.
I also don't hear "uh" in your example video, and I hear it as "e",
(so it is just a matter of how you write the sound in letters - but it is the same sound)

As for the word יראו, it is as you say "uh"/"e" (doesn't matter).
The same sound of the "Y" in ירושלים (Ye-ru-sha-la-(y)im)

The reason people pronounce it as "yi" is probably (and I say probably) because the "Y" letter "pushes" the mouth toward the "i" vowel.
So for example, the prophet Isaiah is in Hebrew ישעיהו
the first letter has Sheva
But you will hear people pronounce it with Hiriq (the I vowel).

By the way, just a word about the vowels of the word.
This is a case where the Shuruq in the last letter Vav belongs to the letter R.
So the vowel of the letter R and the R itself are divided by a silent Aleph.

**
And just another thing about the Sheva and its sound...
There is an accent that pronounces the Sheva as "a" and that is the Yemenite accent.
But all of the rest pronounce it like you heard.

***
Edit:

Another possible reason why people pronounce it as "yir-u" is maybe that this form is the form that "should have been".
I mean, the imperative form.
But maybe because this would be possible to be understood in another meaning, this word change its form to this one.
So maybe people pronounce that word in the natural way of the form.
David Hunter
ralph
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Re: what are the differences between these pronunciation of simple shva

Post by ralph »

ducky wrote: I ..don't hear "uh" in your example video, and I hear it as "e",
How about if you listen to https://www.dictionary.com/browse/banana do you hear the first syllable as 'e'?

Does that sound like a segol to you?
ducky wrote: sound of the "Y" in ירושלים (Ye-ru-sha-la-(y)im)
I've heard that a few ways.. pretty sure i've heard one modern israeli song where it's done like a segol.. though looking it up I ran into another song where they sang it ilke a hirik.
ducky wrote: prophet Isaiah is in Hebrew ישעיהו
the first letter has Sheva
But you will hear people pronounce it with Hiriq (the I vowel).
yeah
ducky wrote: (so it is just a matter of how you write the sound in letters - but it is the same sound)
re it being the same sound, logically, no.. if you speak of people pronouncing something differently, that means the sound is different. So e.g. the sound of a segol and the sound of a chirik are different. So if a thing is pronounced sometimes by some people as segol, and sometimes by some people as chirik, then those are different sounds, even if they are pronouncing the same thing.

If you mean we are talking about a simple vocal shva, you and I am yes, that's the subject of the thread. And written the same.. with the two dots one above the other.
ducky wrote: As for the word יראו, it is as you say "uh"/"e" (doesn't matter).
The same sound of the "Y" in ירושלים (Ye-ru-sha-la-(y)im)
We agree it's a vocal simple sheva there. Maybe in modern hebrew they pronounce it a few different ways. You say it doesn't matter, maybe it doesn't to you!
ducky wrote: {regarding יראו }
The reason people pronounce it as "yi" is probably (and I say probably) because the "Y" letter "pushes" the mouth toward the "i" vowel.
So for example, the prophet Isaiah is in Hebrew ישעיהו
the first letter has Sheva
But you will hear people pronounce it with Hiriq (the I vowel).
Well, if the Y does that then why do some people pronounce Y-rushalayim like there is a segol on that Y?
ducky wrote: {regarding יראו }
By the way, just a word about the vowels of the word.
This is a case where the Shuruq in the last letter Vav belongs to the letter R.
So the vowel of the letter R and the R itself are divided by a silent Aleph.
okay but I don't think that's relevant to how people are pronouncing the simple vocal shva, is it?
Ralph Zak
ducky
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Re: what are the differences between these pronunciation of simple shva

Post by ducky »

Hi Ralph,

After seeing your comment and your other thread, I'll try to be more general.
Because I don't understand if your purpose is about the Modern way of this reading or about the Biblical pronunciation of the mobile Sheva.

Today, people pronounce the Mobile Sheva in two ways:
1. as Segol (like מְלוכה=me-lu-kha)
2. as "nothing" (like שְביל=shvil)

It depends on the letter of the Sheva.
If it is M,L,N,R,Y
then it is not comfortable to "run" with it (as pronouncing "no vowel"), and so the Segol comes.

Therefore, ירושלים or יראו would start with "ye-ru"

--And, by the way, the verse from the benching is from Psalm, so you can find a reader to see how he pronounces it
---even though, I also heard one reader that reads it wrong as ---yir)u---

***************************

As for the Biblical era, I can say only what my logic tells me, and that is that this Sheva was also "running" without a "real vowel" but with a more neutral one. (because the whole point of the Mobile Sheva is to connect itself to the next consonant).
So the יראו would be -- y'ru.
And of course, the neutral vowel was not always the same, but was affected by the condition of its surroundings (the other vowels and consonants).

Later on, and since this neutral vowel created a natural linking vowel, eventually, this natural quick vowel was "given" to it "formally"
(The Tiberian pronounced it as a quick "a", and the more common dialect pronounced it as a quick "e").
David Hunter
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