The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

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Chris Watts
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

Post by Chris Watts »

My question concerns the way in which the following particles of direction are used when describing "defending Jerusalem' or 'defending the city'

עַל־יְרוּשָׁלִָם.......אֶת־יִשְׂרָאֵל........אֶל־הָעִיר

As a basic meaning and use in grammar I do understand, the grammar books explain, but what I do not have access to is my question that really targets the 'Nuance' rather than simply translating the sentence.

Is there really a specific nuance that the writer would convey by choosing one particle over another from the above three?

Chris watts
ducky
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Re: The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

Post by ducky »

Hi Chris.

I don't think there is a point in looking for nuance in this case.
The particles אל and על have a lot of similar "little" meanings, and they are switched a lot of times.
So even if one gives a specific meaning to the word אל, the same meaning can be given to the על, and then we get to the same start-spot.

Also, you can see that the form with אל is rare (only one time), and all of the rest are with על.
for example:
2Kings 19:34 וְגַנּוֹתִ֛י אֶל־הָעִ֥יר הַזֹּ֖את לְהוֹשִׁיעָ֑הּ לְמַֽעֲנִ֔י וּלְמַ֖עַן דָּוִ֥ד עַבְדִּֽי
2Kings 20:6 וְגַנּוֹתִי֙ עַל־הָעִ֣יר הַזֹּ֔את לְמַֽעֲנִ֔י וּלְמַ֖עַן דָּוִ֥ד עַבְדִּֽי
Isa. 37:35 וְגַנּוֹתִ֛י עַל־הָעִ֥יר הַזֹּ֖את לְהֽוֹשִׁיעָ֑הּ לְמַֽעֲנִ֔י וּלְמַ֖עַן דָּוִ֥ד עַבְדִּֽי

It is actually the same verse again and again. And I don't think that the writer wanted to say one thing the first time, and something else the other time.

The usage of the two particles (or even three: with בעד) can be seen also in other verbs, for example, root פלל in Hitpael (to pray).

So התפלל אל can be התפלל על and can be התפלל בעד with the meaning of praying for something/one.

Basically, we can always (try to) find a specific nuance for each particle, and say that this is more about this, and that one is more about that.
But since they can already bear the same meanings, and also used to switch between them a lot of times anyway, then sometimes the reasonable thing to say is that it is just a matter of style (which using the על was more popular).
Last edited by ducky on Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hunter
Chris Watts
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Re: The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

Post by Chris Watts »

Hallo Ducky,
Thank you, just wanted to be certain, thanks for your time.
Chris watts
ducky
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Re: The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

Post by ducky »

By the way, if we're already here, and the root גנן (defend) is part of this thread (in the word גנותי), it is a good opportunity to talk about one of this root's forms --- יגן.
Isa. 31:5 כְּצִפֳּרִים עָפוֹת כֵּן יָגֵן י״י צְבָאוֹת עַל יְרוּשָׁלָ͏ִם גָּנוֹן וְהִצִּיל פָּסֹחַ וְהִמְלִיט
Zac. 9:15 י״י צְבָאוֹת יָגֵן עֲלֵיהֶם וְאָכְלוּ וְכָבְשׁוּ אַבְנֵי קֶלַע וְשָׁתוּ הָמוּ כְּמוֹ יָיִן וּמָלְאוּ כַּמִּזְרָק כְּזָוִיּוֹת מִזְבֵּחַ
Zac. 12:8 בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא יָגֵן י״י בְּעַד יוֹשֵׁב יְרוּשָׁלַ͏ִם וְהָיָה הַנִּכְשָׁל בָּהֶם בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא כְּדָוִיד וּבֵית דָּוִיד כֵּאלֹהִים כְּמַלְאַךְ י״י לִפְנֵיהֶם

On another thread, the three forms of the imperfect Qal (YQTL) came up.
Yaqtul
yaqtil (on that thread, I wrote it as yiqtil (I will correct that there)
yiqtal

When it comes to the word יגן, some see it as a Hiphil form.
But some see it as a Qal form, from yaqatil-->yaqtel.

supporting this claim is the fact that this root, in its other forms, is always Qal.
It appears 5 times more (than the three times of יגן).
4 times as גנותי (which is Qal).
1 time as גנון (which is also Qal).

So when it comes to יגן, it seems that it acts in the same way.
David Hunter
Chris Watts
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

Post by Chris Watts »

Hi David, I hope you will forgive me. I am not that well aquainted with Hebrew to be able to enter into any discussion that would be of benefit to you. My knowledge stops at recognising the various verbal structures (Binyamin) and accepting what the definitions are (mostly). I am not able ever to say something like this: "Well I think that should be a piel really, or the dot is in the wrong place. I am self taught, therefore no official accreditations come after my name except what my wife has allotted me.

If you could simplify the point you are making I would be very interested Ducky.

Chris watts
ducky
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

Post by ducky »

Hi Chris,

I also don't carry any accreditations next to my name (I don't know if you thought I do).
And even though I do have some academic learning, most of my study is from books and articles, (which basically, this is what University teaches - just using the already written books and articles).

You said: "I am not that well acquainted with Hebrew to be able to enter into any discussion that would be of benefit to you".
Every discussion benefits me. Trust me. I'm not that great. And I guess every discussion also benefits others as well.

As for your study and its purpose, my view is that first, you need to get to the level of reading and understanding the simple prose (as Kings). All of the other stuff - as all of the anecdotes - sometimes is just not useful to some. and it is a waste of time.

And I'd be glad to write it again (this weekend).
I think that it is my fault for my previous post is misunderstood, because I guess that I tend to throw my words to the "screen" without making sure to explain them well.
So don't think that if you don't understand me, it is because of your "level in Hebrew" - I'm quite sure that I just write stuff unclearly.
David Hunter
Chris Watts
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

Post by Chris Watts »

Thank you Ducky. I appreciate your explanation. I understand most of what you say, but, as has been my experience on this forum in the past, I tend also to write what is my head without really considering the readers' perspective. I think now that I have learned a lesson and hopefully will apply much more thought to the 'presentation' as opposed to what seems logically arranged in my thoughts. Oh and yes, from what I have read you certainly seem more knowledgeable than myself, so that is good for me.
Thanks
Chris watts
ducky
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: The Particles describing 'to' 'against' and the 'accusative'

Post by ducky »

Hi,

Qal has three forms (both in its perfect form and in its imperfect form).
So as for the imperfect, it has forms like:
1. יִשְׁמֹר=yishmor
2. יִלְמַד=yilmad
3a. יִתֵּן=yitten (from root נתן)
3b. יֵשֵׁב=yeshev

What's important for this specific subject is the second (and the last one) vowel.
So #1 (ישמר) ends with an O vowel (Holam).
#2 ends with an A vowel (Patah').
And #3 ends with an E vowel (Tsere).

These three forms are based on:
1. Yaqtul--->yiqtol (like ישמר=yishmor)
2. yiqtal (like ילמד =yilmad)
3. yaqtil (like יתן=yitten / ישב=yeshev)

Notice that the second vowel in #3 yaqtil (the "i") turns to vowel "e" (Tesre).
(And in general, almost every Tsere is an evolution of Hiriq).

So this is about the Qal form

****
Hiphil...
The imperfect form of Hiphil is "yaqtil" (like יפקיד=yafqid).
Notice that also Qal form #3 is Yaqtil - and that created a "problem", which probably caused the Qal form to be "pushed" aside and to be used only in specific forms.
In other words, the Hiphil took over this "yaqtil" form).

anyway, that "yaqtil" form is the imperfect Hiphil form For Regular Root Forms.


But we were talking before about the verb יגן from root גנן, and that is not a regular form.
The imperfect form of roots that end with a double letter is different.
For example: from root חלל - the Hiphil form is יָחֵל=yah'el.

In the Bible, the root גנן has an imperfect form יָגֵן=yagen.
And this form basically fits the imperfect Hiphil (such as יָחֵל from חלל).

But the assumption is that this יגן is not really a "yaqtil" form of Hiphil, but it is actually a "yaqtil" form of Qal.

And supporting this claim is the fact that this root, in its other forms, is always Qal.
It appears 5 times more (than the three times of יגן).
4 times as גנותי (which is Qal).
1 time as גנון (which is also Qal)

So when it comes to the imperfect, there is no reason for this root to suddenly jump into the Hiphil form.

****
A little anecdote...
In Mishnaic Hebrew, this root גנן is used also in perfect and participle Hiphil (like הֵגֵן and מֵגֵן).
And the assumption is that since the imperfect form יגן looked like Hiphil (even though it is Qal), it "influenced" the speakers to create other forms of Hiphil from that root.

So here the root is Qal in the Bible, and later on (in the Mishna) it was expanded also to Hiphil.
*
But sometimes, this "expansion" can be seen inside the bible itself.
For example, in root בין.
Its imperfect is יבין.
And the assumption is that it was actually a Qal form.
But since this form יבין looks like an imperfect Hiphil form, other Hiphil forms started to be used (such as הבין an so on).
David Hunter
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