imperfect as past tense

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kwrandolph
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Re: imperfect as past tense

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:28 am
I’ve become convinced, against popular opinion, that the unmarked word order of biblical Hebrew was subject-verb-object (SVO). Robert Holmstedt has written several articles relating to word order that have me convinced. I’m glad that we seem to have agreement on that question. ;)

I don’t know if SVO is the right designation. It seems to have operated like German, in which the verb occupies second position. First position is naturally occupied by the subject, but if something else is fronted for whatever reason, then the subject drops behind the verb. It could be a temporal statement, the vav-prefix used for the narrative past (vayyiqtol), a fronted object, etc. Whatever it is, it displaces the subject and causes it to drop lower in the structure. Modals of volition (jussives, cohortatives, imperatives) take precedence and are themselves fronted and then followed by the subject.
What I was looking for was quoted spoken Hebrew, quoted conversations. Written literary Hebrew is more complex. Poetry much more complex. Secondly it was to answer, for myself at least, which is the most common verbal form relating to present action. In modern Israeli Hebrew, I’ve been told that the participle serves as the present tense marker: but in Biblical Hebrew the participle is used for future and past actions as well, therefore it was not a tense marker for Biblical Hebrew.

I was looking only for present action sentences, which rules out modals of volition which refer to a future action.

What I found is a S-V-O sentence structure.

The verb is a Qatal Qal. Because of what I was taught in class, I had expected to find Yiqtol verbs.

Karl W. Randolph.
ralph
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Re: imperfect as past tense

Post by ralph »

Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:28 am
kwrandolph wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:53 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:26 pm Principle intent: Don’t take someone’s word for it. Investigate the issue for yourself.
And that includes taking the word of John Cook and Jason.

By the way, Jason, did you know that the majority of quoted sentences in the narrative sections where the action was taking place even as the person was speaking (present action) that the sentence structure consists of subject noun (or pronoun on the verb)—verb in Qatal—object if applicable? This is particularly true of pre-exile books.

Participles are used less often.

It appears that the Qatal is used when the subject is the emphasis. Participles when the action is the emphasis.

I did a survey one time when reading Tenakh through.

Karl W. Randolph.
I’ve become convinced, against popular opinion, that the unmarked word order of biblical Hebrew was subject-verb-object (SVO). Robert Holmstedt has written several articles relating to word order that have me convinced. I’m glad that we seem to have agreement on that question. ;)

I don’t know if SVO is the right designation. It seems to have operated like German, in which the verb occupies second position. First position is naturally occupied by the subject, but if something else is fronted for whatever reason, then the subject drops behind the verb. It could be a temporal statement, the vav-prefix used for the narrative past (vayyiqtol), a fronted object, etc. Whatever it is, it displaces the subject and causes it to drop lower in the structure. Modals of volition (jussives, cohortatives, imperatives) take precedence and are themselves fronted and then followed by the subject.
Can you link to these articles you read by Robert Holmstedt?

Thanks
Can you link to these articles?
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Jason Hare
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Re: imperfect as past tense

Post by Jason Hare »

ralph wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:01 pm Can you link to these articles you read by Robert Holmstedt?

Thanks
Can you link to these articles?
The first place to start is his analysis of Genesis (link). I can get you a copy to your email, if you would like. Apart from that, I can put together a short reading list on the topic that will include contrary opinions and Holmstedt’s conclusions.
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Kirk Lowery
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Re: imperfect as past tense

Post by Kirk Lowery »

Jason,

That reading list would be helpful. Thanks!

Kirk
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Jason Hare
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Re: imperfect as past tense

Post by Jason Hare »

Kirk Lowery wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:08 am Jason,

That reading list would be helpful. Thanks!

Kirk
I’ll get that to you on Friday. I’m moving to a new apartment this weekend!
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Kirk Lowery
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Re: imperfect as past tense

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No worries. I hope the new place will be a place of peace for you.

Kirk
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Jason Hare
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Re: imperfect as past tense

Post by Jason Hare »

Sorry that I’ve been away. I have accomplished the move to the new apartment, but I still have some books that need to be transferred over. I’ll be back on here to write up the short bibliography probably during יוֹם כִּפּוּר, since I won’t be doing much else.
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