B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

what do you think of this translation for each word of Gen 49:22?




It seems to be saying that Joseph is a fruitful son, fruitful on the eye; Daughters run upon the walls.

So fruitful on the eye looks like an idiom for good looking.

And daughters run upon the walls, looks like an idiom for women / peoples' daughters, flocking to see,

Yet the English translations have lots of figurative speech about a vine and branches and a well !!!!

Ralph:

The first thing you need to notice is grammar. The way you have it, בנות צעדה mixes plural noun with singular verb.

Secondly, the words of the sentence could have different meanings than what you think. בן can mean “among” or “have insight”. פרת is used elsewhere to refer to a group of female cattle Genesis 41:26. על means not only upon, but also beside. שור is a place name, the verb to gaze upon, or an ox. עין is also used for a spring of water where cattle can drink. בנות can be the plural of daughters, but also “pasture” in construct with a prefixed ב. With all these other options, what meaning can you tease out of this verse?

Karl W. Randolph.

Did you notice the Catholic Douay-Rheims translation?
The verse is often quoted as protection against the evil eye (עַ֫יִן הָרַע), but I’m not really sure why!

As the Douay-Rheims translation demonstrates, the Latin translation of Gen 49:22 also interpreted the Hebrew as indicating Joseph was good looking:

Filius accrescens Joseph, filius accrescens et decorus aspectu : filiæ discurrerunt super murum.
(Lit.: Son growing [is] Joseph; a son growing and handsome in appearance: daughters roam/run to and fro upon [the] wall)

The LXX is somewhat different:

υἱὸς ηὐξημένος Ἰωσήφ, υἱὸς ηὐξημένος μου ζηλωτός· υἱός μου νεώτατος· πρὸς μὲ ἀνάστρεψον
(Joseph [is] a grown son, my enviable grown son; return to me, my youngest son.)

Evidently a difficult verse for people to understand exactly what's being said.

Well, that’s frustrating. I understand that the nouns υἱός and θεός regularly take nominatives as vocatives in the Koinē, but I don’t see why that should influence the adjective that accompanies such a form. Should we not expect νεώτατε rather than νεώτατος? That’s annoying.
I wonder what they’d say over on B-Greek regarding the commonality of the nominative used in adjectives paired with θεός and υἱός used as vocatives.

OK, I’ll give a translation, then expect to be proven wrong. After all, it is by making fools of ourselves that we learn.

Joseph is among a herd of cows, among a herd of cows next to a spring, the herd strides in territories next to a bull.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:17 pm OK, I’ll give a translation, then expect to be proven wrong. After all, it is by making fools of ourselves that we learn.

Joseph is among a herd of cows, among a herd of cows next to a spring, the herd strides in territories next to a bull.

Karl W. Randolph.

The verse is so slippery that I wouldn’t rule anything out dogmatically. Like, I assume that פֹּרָת is a feminine singular participle, like פֹּרָה and פֹּרִיָּה, but I don’t know what it’s supposed to be in agreement with. The whole verse is hard to get a good grasp on.