Masc proper noun with Fem verb

[Chris Watts]

Karl, I do take your point about the '2nd Pers Masc' possibility and it will work, but unfortunately I do trust the judgement of those cute bearded men with their quills, drinking cups of tea in that hot Babylonian sunshine who were closest to the Hebrew and its traditions and sensibilities. But I do see your point.

Hi Ducky, Ok, slight problem with הֵיטִיבָה.

1. BibleHub, (which makes a mistake 1% of the time, always in grammar) lists this as Feminine
2. Davidson's Lexicon lists this as Masculine
3. Page Kelly's Grammar book lists this as Feminine
4. Grammar rules suggest this to be feminine, though I recognise sometimes that the letter Heh may be added to a masculine though no idea why or how to recognise this.

A little confusing methinks...

Kindest Regards
Chris watts

[ducky]

Chris,

I don't know these sources and I can't tell you the reason they write that.
you need to make sure that this word that see is in the right context.

היטיבה can be feminine (if it 3pfs)
and היטיבה can be masculine if it is an imperative

Now ask yourself, is the verse a calling for God to do good?
Or does the verse talk about a "she" that did good? (and if it is even can be read like that?).

So pay attention for that, because it may be that these lexicons gives automatically both possible case (without caring about the verse's context), or even give only one option (which doesn't fit the specific case of the verse).

[ducky]

Hi Chris,

adding to my post above...
I saw Page H Kelley's book, and indeed, when he writes היטיבה as feminine, it has nothing to do with this verse.
Heb just explain how the forms of root יטב acts.

The reason he didn't put it in the imperative, it is because היטיבה is the long form of the verb (just like השיבה for השב for example) and in his table, he shows only the regular forms.

Bible Hub, writes it as masculine, but also continue to write the other option of feminine (I don't know why, maybe just a general note that the form, as a form, fits also the feminine.

Anyway, before you try to Analize the verbs, you must have the basic idea of the context.

[Chris Watts]

Hallo Ducky, all your points have been noted and thank you. However just one slight quibble,though I can not think of any really good examples at this moment, what you said here : """Anyway, before you try to Analize the verbs, you must have the basic idea of the context"""" ....does not always work otherwise I would not have asked the original question. For example, Karl's preference, and the preference in the lexicon is just one example.

Chris watts

[ducky]

Hi Chris,

It does.
And it is the only way.
It is not "cheating", it just how things are.

If you'd asked me what היטיבה mean, I would give you two options.
If you'd asked me what היטיבה mean inside a specific sentence, then the answer would be according to the context.

Same things with a lot of words.
You must know "where you are" in the sentence.


Maybe I'll try an English example, I don't know if it's good or not (but the principle would be understood).
The word "mistress" can be a "concubine" but also a "woman with authority".
So of course, for you to understand what the meaning is, you must understand the context.
1. He had served his mistress for years until she died (woman with authority).
2. He used to meet his mistress every weekend (concubine).
3. Him and his mistress had always had a good relationship (could be both, not enough context).

So, the same is with Hebrew.
When it comes to a word that can get two meanings, you pick the right meaning through the context.
And if you automatically go to the lexicon without understanding the rough context, it may deceive you.

for example,
הֵיטִיבָה ה לַטּוֹבִים וְלִישָׁרִים בְּלִבּוֹתָם
The moment you see that the lexicon write is a "feminine", you should have stopped and ask yourself, who is this female that did good?
you then realize that it doesn't fit the context. And then you need to ask yourself if the verb can be understood in a different way.

[Chris Watts]

Hi Chris,

If you'd asked me what היטיבה mean, I would give you two options.
If you'd asked me what היטיבה mean inside a specific sentence, then the answer would be according to the context.

So, the same is with Hebrew.
When it comes to a word that can get two meanings, you pick the right meaning through the context.
And if you automatically go to the lexicon without understanding the rough context, it may deceive you.

for example,
הֵיטִיבָה ה לַטּוֹבִים וְלִישָׁרִים בְּלִבּוֹתָם
The moment you see that the lexicon write is a "feminine", you should have stopped and ask yourself, who is this female that did good?
you then realize that it doesn't fit the context. And then you need to ask yourself if the verb can be understood in a different way.

Hi Ducky, I am not that daft, please, I was not referring to the word that you have quoted, I was making a general statement and using Karl's interpretation of כִּי־תֹאמַר אֱדוֹם in Malachi 1:4 which differs from the lexicon. IE, it can be 2MS or 3FS. Context here does not really help. It obviously depends upon whether you wish to refer to People in the Land or the Land itself, not much of a difference I know, but this is what I was referring to. I know context is important.

By the way. You said " who is this female that did good"? I do not see it that way, it has nothing to do with female and male, but masc and fem. Two completely different concepts in Hebrew, otherwise we would not be mixing masculine things with Feminine verbs and visa versa as has been stated earlier on in this thread.

chris watts

[ducky]

Hi Chris,

Never thought of you as a daft.
Sorry if that what it sounds like.

Malachi 1:14 are words to Israel (verse 1).
It talks to Israel, and in verse 3 it talks to Israel about Esau (Edom), and when it gets to verse 4, it continues talk to Israel about Edom.
And in the same verse 4, it continues to talk to Israel about Edom in 3person, המה יבנו ואני אהרוס=they will build, and I will destroy.
Edom is "they" in this case, and the talk is to Israel as mentioned in verse 1.
So here, the context is clear, and Edom is referred to as 3person.

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Edit: I deleted the irrelevant words for this verse (I was confused with the other verse)

*******
about the second part of your comment.
It doesn't matter if you call it female of a feminine thing.
You should ask who/what is the feminine thing that did good.
And even if you "find" her/it, how can it fit the reading when the name of God comes next (if we're already talking about vocative).

Sorry again if I pissed you off somehow. No intention at all.

[Chris Watts]

No Ducky you did not, all is fine. I was not annoyed or anything. All your points have been noted, thank you.
Chris watts

[kwrandolph]

Malachi 1:4 כי תאמר אדום רששנו ונשוב ונבנה חרבות I read as “For Edom, you say, ‘We are shattered, but we intend to return and intend to build the desolate places…’” which is then the second person, singular because Edom is a singular noun.

You don’t need any convoluted grammar if so read.

But the Masoretes, a thousand years after the last native speaker of Biblical Hebrew had died, who themselves spoke a version of Aramaic that had been influenced and changed by Indo-European languages—Farsi, Greek, Latin—and not realizing that the Hebrew that they knew was not the same as Biblical Hebrew, they had trouble with verses like this.

Karl W. Randolph.

[ducky]

Hi Karl,

You say that you read כי תאמר אדום as “For Edom, you say, ‘We are shattered, but we intend to return and intend to build the desolate places…’”.
As 2ps.

I don't know how you got to this introduction: 'For Edom'.

***
The reading that I make seeing תאמר as feminine is just based on the passage's context and on the specific verse syntax.

The context of the passage (as I wrote above) is God talks to Israel about his love to them compared with the hate that he has to Edom/Esau.
This is built as some sort of a Q&A dialogue between God and Israel.
I don't know how suddenly, in verse 4, we should read it as if God "turns aside" and speaks directly to Edom,
And then, as verse 4 continues, it refers to Edom once again in 3person.
כִּי תֹאמַר אֱדוֹם רֻשַּׁשְׁנוּ וְנָשׁוּב וְנִבְנֶה חֳרָבוֹת... הֵמָּה יִבְנוּ וַאֲנִי אֶהֱרוֹס
(And if) You, Edom, say that you will rebuild, (then) they will build, and I will destroy.
How does that work?

Father: Danny, you say you won't doing your homework. Well, thus says your father, he will be punished.
Why not: 'You' will be punished.

It clearly refers to Edom as "they" - in the same verse - in the linked clause that's referring to the first one.

This is a comfort talk to Israel. It has nothing to do with talking to Edom. What's the point of doing that?

The verse is built as a conditional clause - which the second part has to continue the reference of the first clause.
Just like many others verses that starts with כי+imperfect, and continue with the same reference (to the subject or the object).

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I'm sure that you see what I see, and I'm sure that you can accept also תאמר here as 3person feminine.
I wonder what makes you favor the other option of תאמר as 2person masculine over the 3pf.

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Just a note, the first clause ,כי תאמר אדום, can be understood as the words of God, or as the words of Israel.