right translation of Daniel 9:25

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kwrandolph
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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by kwrandolph »

Danielkim wrote:Is there anybody can give me information where I can get online hebrew calendar showing upto 1000BC minimum.
I am looking for reliable jewish calendar.
because I want to know when Jesus actually died and also want to know how old the earth is.
please help me. web addresses please.
thank you


Daniel Kim.
servant of the Lord.
south Korea
What you ask for doesn’t exist.

While the Bible’s dates are exact, there are to gaps, one from the retirement of Daniel (second year of Cyrus) to when Nehemiah was given the command to rebuild Jerusalem (Cyrus only commanded the return of the Jews (optional) and the rebuilding of the temple) and the other after the end of the Jewish revolt. All other dates are speculative and could be off, often by quite a bit. Even the Roman dates could be off by years. Previous Egyptian dates could be off by centuries. So what you ask for doesn’t exist.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by SteveMiller »

Cyrus gave the word to rebuild the city of Jerusalem also. Isa 44:28.
Anstey's Chronology goes back from Christ's crucifixion to Adam without any gaps or secular dates. I don't think all his interpretations are correct, but I agree with 483 years from Cyrus' proclamation to the Messiah's crucifixion.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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kwrandolph
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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by kwrandolph »

Steve:
SteveMiller wrote:Cyrus gave the word to rebuild the city of Jerusalem also. Isa 44:28.
Good point.

Yet the actual command that Cyrus gave is recounted in Ezra 1:1–4 where it mentions only the rebuilding of the temple. However, in rebuilding the temple, at least portions of the city needed to be rebuilt to support the rebuilding of the temple and the operation thereof. Therefore Cyrus’ command can be understood in practice as commanding at least a partial rebuilding of the city too.
SteveMiller wrote:Anstey's Chronology goes back from Christ's crucifixion to Adam without any gaps or secular dates. I don't think all his interpretations are correct, but I agree with 483 years from Cyrus' proclamation to the Messiah's crucifixion.
I have some problems with that, one of which is that the 70th seven of years would have to have followed immediately after the resurrection, which it didn’t. That 70th seven of years is a description of a few of the highlights of the Jewish revolt of 66 AD.

Also, who was the “anointed leader” who would have come 49 years after Cyrus’ command?

Positing that the seven sevens of years to the “anointed leader” and the 62 sevens of years to the cutting off of “Messiah” both start at the same time clears up the problems I note above, but then leaves a gap between Daniel and Nehemiah.

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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by SteveMiller »

I place the 70th seven at the end of the age, the last 3.5 years being the great tribulation. So there's a gap from the resurrection until the last 7 years. The 70 sevens are the time given to Israel. The gap in between the 69th and 70th seven is the time of the gentiles, not of Israel.

I don't understand it to mean that there is an anointed one that came after 49 years, but after7*(7+62) years. So, the anointed one is Christ. The 7*7 years, I think, were for the completion of the writing of the Old Testament.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
kwrandolph
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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by kwrandolph »

SteveMiller wrote:I place the 70th seven at the end of the age, the last 3.5 years being the great tribulation. So there's a gap from the resurrection until the last 7 years. The 70 sevens are the time given to Israel. The gap in between the 69th and 70th seven is the time of the gentiles, not of Israel.
Yes, I know that theory. I just find it not believable, especially when it also describes the Jewish Revolt of 66 AD.
SteveMiller wrote:I don't understand it to mean that there is an anointed one that came after 49 years, but after7*(7+62) years. So, the anointed one is Christ. The 7*7 years, I think, were for the completion of the writing of the Old Testament.
The anointed leader of verse 25 was not the same as the Anointed.

Taking the Jewish Revolt of 66 AD as the end of the 490 years, that brings us to 417 BC as the beginning. Nehemiah was given the specific command to rebuild Jerusalem. He was also a contemporary of Ezra who lived around 400 BC. If we take that the 15th year of Tiberius included the ten year co-rule he had with Augustus, that would put Jesus’ death between about 25 to 30 AD, or after 62 sevens of years after 417 BC. That would also make him about 30 given a birth year of 7 BC.

Our understanding of ancient history is notoriously uncertain, the dates for Egyptian history can be off by centuries. So 49 years after 417 BC brings us to a decade off from our understanding of when a famous Greek (Macedonian) king who overthrew the Persian empire was born. I’m talking about Alexander the Great. There’s nothing that says that the “anointed leader” had to be Jewish. To me it sounds that the “anointed leader” is Alexander the Great.

This interpretation of the verses makes the 70 sevens of years a single unit.

That’s just my interpretation of the verses, my 2¢, you can make of it what you will.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by Lostntym8 »

The notion of the 70th week being dislocated from the whole does not set well with me. Here is my 2 cents according to my training. The following is adapted from the book Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!:

Daniel 9:24 indicates the seventy weeks would "finish off transgression" (הפשע לכלא), "and put an end to sin" (ולחתם חמאות) and "usher in everlasting righteousness" (ולהביא צדק עלמים). According to the angel's words the 70 weeks would be broken into 3 time periods; (1) 7 weeks, (2) 62 weeks, (3) 1 week. The starting point would be the "going forth of the WORD to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. When would this be?
Three noteworthy incidents deserve consideration with regard to the beginning of the "seventy weeks." The first occurred in 537 B.C.E. when Cyrus issued his decree restoring the Jews to their homeland. As has been noted by Karl Randolph this was "optional".-see Ezra 1:2-4.
The second incident occurred in the seventh year of the reign of Persian King Artaxerxes (Artaxerxes Longimanus, son of Xerxes I). At that time, Ezra the copyist made a four-month journey from Babylon to Jerusalem (Ezra 7:8). He carried a special letter from the king, but it did not authorize the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Instead, Ezra's commission was limited to 'honoring the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem' (לפאר את בית יהוה אשר בירושלם).-see Ezra 7:27. That is why the letter referred to hold and silver, sacred vessels, and contributions of wheat, wine, oil, and salt for support of worship at the temple, as well as freedom from taxation for those serving there.- see Ezra 7:6-27.
The third incident occurred 13 years later, in the 20th year of Persian King Artaxerxes. Nehemiah was then serving as his cupbearer in "Shushan the castle." Jerusalem had been rebuilt to some extent by the remnant that had returned from Babylon. But all was not well. Nehemiah learned that 'the wall of Jerusalem was broken down and its very gates had been burned with fire'. This disturbed him greatly, and gloom settled upon his heart. Questioned about his sadness, Nehemiah replied: "Let the king himself live to time indefinite! Why should not my face become gloomy when the city, the house of the burial places of my forefathers, is devastated, and its very gates have been eaten up with fire?"-see Nehemiah 1:1-3; 2:1-3.
The account involving Nehemiah continues: “In turn the king said to me: ‘What is this that you are seeking to secure?’ At once I prayed to the God of the heavens. After that I said to the king: ‘If to the king it does seem good, and if your servant seems good before you, that you would send me to Judah, to the city of the burial places of my forefathers, that I may rebuild it.’” This proposal pleased Artaxerxes, who also acted on Nehemiah’s further request: “If to the king it does seem good, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the River [Euphrates], that they may let me pass until I come to Judah; also a letter to Asaph the keeper of the park that belongs to the king, that he may give me trees to build with timber the gates of the Castle that belongs to the house, and for the wall of the city and for the house into which I am to enter.” Nehemiah acknowledged Jehovah’s role in all of this, saying: “So the king gave [the letters] to me, according to the good hand of my God upon me."—see Nehemiah 2:4-8.
Although permission was given in the month of Nisan, during the early part of the 20th year of Artaxerxes’ reign, the actual “going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem” took effect months later. This occurred when Nehemiah arrived in Jerusalem and began his work of restoration. Ezra’s journey had taken four months, but Shushan was over 200 miles east of Babylon and thus even farther from Jerusalem. Most likely, then, Nehemiah’s arrival in Jerusalem occurred near the end of Artaxerxes’ 20th year, or in 455 B.C.E. It is then that the foretold “seventy weeks,” or 490 years, began. They would end in the latter part of 36 C.E.. Now here is where historians disagree. When did Artaxerxes’ Reign Begin? Historians disagree regarding the year in which the reign of Persian King Artaxerxes began. Some have placed his accession year in 465 B.C.E. because his father, Xerxes, started to rule in 486 B.C.E. and died in the 21st year of his reign. But there is evidence that Artaxerxes ascended to the throne in 475 B.C.E. and began his first regnal year in 474 B.C.E.
Inscriptions and sculptures unearthed at the ancient Persian capital Persepolis indicate a coregency between Xerxes and his father, Darius I. If this covered 10 years and Xerxes ruled alone for 11 years after Darius died in 486 B.C.E., the first year of Artaxerxes’ reign would have been 474 B.C.E.
A second line of evidence involves Athenian General Themistocles, who defeated Xerxes’ forces in 480 B.C.E. He later fell out of favor with the Greek people and was accused of treason. Themistocles fled and sought protection at the Persian court, where he was well received. According to the Greek historian Thucydides, this happened when Artaxerxes had but “lately come to the throne.” The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus puts the death of Themistocles at 471 B.C.E. Since Themistocles requested a year to learn Persian before having an audience with King Artaxerxes, he must have arrived in Asia Minor no later than 473 B.C.E. That date is supported by Jerome’s Chronicle of Eusebius. As Artaxerxes had “lately come to the throne” when Themistocles arrived in Asia in 473 B.C.E., German scholar Ernst Hengstenberg stated in his Christology of the Old Testament that Artaxerxes’ reign commenced in 474 B.C.E., as do other sources. He added: “The twentieth year of Artaxerxes is the year 455 before Christ.”
Now then, how many years elapsed before Jerusalem was actually rebuilt? Well, the restoration of the city was to be accomplished “in the straits of the times” because of difficulties among the Jews themselves and opposition from the Samaritans and others. The work was evidently completed to the extent necessary by about 406 B.C.E.—within the “seven weeks,” or 49 years. (Daniel 9:25) A period of 62 weeks, or 434 years, would follow. After that time period, the long-promised Messiah would appear. Counting 483 years (49 plus 434) from 455 B.C.E. brings us to 29 C.E. What happened at that time? The Gospel writer Luke tells us: “In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was district ruler of Galilee, . . . God’s declaration came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. So he came into all the country around the Jordan, preaching baptism in symbol of repentance for forgiveness of sins.” At that time “the people were in expectation” of the Messiah.—see Luke 3:1-3, 15.
John was not the promised Messiah. But concerning what he witnessed at the baptism of Jesus of Nazareth, in the fall of 29 C.E., John said: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him. Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one that baptizes in holy spirit.’ And I have seen it, and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (John 1:32-34) At his baptism, Jesus became the Anointed One—the Messiah, or Christ. Shortly thereafter, John’s disciple Andrew met the anointed Jesus and then told Simon Peter: “We have found the Messiah.” (John 1:41) Thus, “Messiah the Leader” appeared exactly on time—at the end of 69 weeks.
What was to be accomplished during the 70th week? Gabriel said that the period of “seventy weeks” had been determined “in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.” For this to be accomplished, “Messiah the Leader” had to die. When? Gabriel said: “After the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. . . . And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.” (Daniel 9:26a, 27a) The critical time was “at the half of the week,” that is, the middle of the last week of years.
Jesus Christ’s public ministry began in the latter part of 29 C.E. and lasted for three and a half years. As prophesied, early in 33 C.E., Christ was “cut off” when he died on a torture stake, giving his human life as a ransom for mankind. The need for the animal sacrifices and the gift offerings prescribed by the Law ceased when the resurrected Jesus presented the value of his sacrificed human life to God in heaven. Although the Jewish priests continued to make offerings until the destruction of Jerusalem’s temple in 70 C.E., such sacrifices were no longer acceptable to God. They had been replaced by a better sacrifice, one that never had to be repeated. The apostle Paul wrote: “[Christ] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually . . . For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually.”—Hebrews 10:12, 14.
Though sin and death continued to afflict mankind, Jesus’ being cut off in death and his resurrection to heavenly life fulfilled prophecy. It ‘terminated transgression, finished off sin, made atonement for error, and brought in righteousness.’ God had removed the Law covenant, which had exposed and condemned the Jews as sinners. Now the sins of repentant wrongdoers could be canceled, and the penalties thereof could be lifted. By means of the Messiah’s propitiatory sacrifice, reconciliation with God was possible for those exercising faith. They could look forward to receiving God’s gift of “everlasting life by Christ Jesus.”—Romans 3:21-26; 6:22, 23; 1 John 2:1, 2.
So it was that God removed the Law covenant by means of Christ’s death in 33 C.E. How, then, could it be said that the Messiah “must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week”? Because he kept the Abrahamic covenant in force. Until the 70th week ended, God extended the blessings of that covenant to Abraham’s Hebrew offspring. But at the end of the “seventy weeks” of years, in 36 C.E., the apostle Peter preached to the devout Italian man Cornelius, his household, and other Gentiles. And from that day on, the good news began to be declared among people of the nations.—see Acts 3:25, 26; 10:1-48; Galatians 3:8, 9, 14.
The prophecy also foretold the anointing of “the Holy of Holies.” This does not refer to anointing the Most Holy, or innermost compartment, of the temple in Jerusalem. The expression “Holy of Holies” here refers to the heavenly sanctuary of God. There, Jesus presented the value of his human sacrifice to his Father. Jesus’ baptism, in 29 C.E., had anointed, or set apart, that heavenly, spiritual reality represented by the Most Holy of the earthly tabernacle and of the later temple.—see Hebrews 9:11, 12.
The Messianic prophecy uttered by the angel Gabriel also spoke of ‘imprinting a seal upon vision and prophet.’ This meant that everything foretold regarding the Messiah—all that he accomplished by means of his sacrifice, resurrection, and appearance in heaven, as well as the other things occurring during the 70th week—would be stamped with the seal of divine backing, would prove true, and could be trusted. The vision would be sealed, restricted to the Messiah. Its fulfillment would be in him and in God’s work through him. Only in connection with the foretold Messiah could we find the correct interpretation of the vision. Nothing else would unseal its meaning.
Gabriel had previously prophesied that Jerusalem would be rebuilt. Now he foretells the destruction of that rebuilt city and its temple, saying: “The city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. . . . And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.” (Daniel 9:26b, 27b) Although this desolation would take place after the “seventy weeks,” it would be a direct result of happenings during the final “week,” when the Jews rejected Christ and had him put to death.—see Matthew 23:37, 38.
Historical records show that in 66 C.E., Roman legions under Syrian Governor Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem. Despite Jewish resistance, the Roman forces bearing their idolatrous ensigns, or standards, penetrated the city and started to undermine the temple wall on the north. Their standing there made them a “disgusting thing” that could cause complete desolation. (Matthew 24:15, 16) In 70 C.E., the Romans under General Titus came like a “flood” and desolated the city and its temple. Nothing stopped them, for this had been decreed—“decided upon”—by God.
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George Athas
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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by George Athas »

Two things to say:

1. There is so much speculation in these posts, as well as inexactitude. The reasoning seems to be clutching at straws in order to aim for a particular pre-determined conclusion. I wouldn't call this good scholarship.

2. Keep discussion focused on Hebrew, please.
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Danielkim
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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by Danielkim »

Daniel,
The Hebrew word is the same in both Jer 29:10 and Dan 9:25. The verb form is hiphil, which is causative.
The normal meaning is "to cause to return" or "bring back", which is how it is translated in Jer 29:10, but this translation doesn't work so well in Dan 9:25 because the direct object is Jerusalem.


Hello. Mr Miller.

So you are saying that if there are two verbs and one conjunction is between of them, those two verbs has to have same object or has to be all transitive verbs? can they be one as intransitive verb and the other one as transitive verb?

for example in English : if somebody says. " go and get it " the first verb "go" is intransitive verb and the second verb"get" is transitive verb. please help.

the reason I am asking this because one scholar says, my new translation of Daniel 9:25 is totally fine.

Daniel Kim
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SteveMiller
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Re: right translation of Daniel 9:25

Post by SteveMiller »

Hi Daniel,
Sorry for not replying earlier.
Two verbs connected by a conjunction do not need to have the same object. One can be transitive and the other intransitive.

In this verse, both verbs "cause the return of" and "build" are unambiguously transitive. In English, "return" can be reflexive (I returned) or transitive (I returned the book). This is not the case with this Hebrew word. It takes a direct object. What could the object be except for Jerusalem?

I think you have pointed out an important detail of the verse. Reversing what I said before, "to restore" Jerusalem is not really a good translation here because "restore" has too broad of a meaning. Many people think that this verse refers to some later decree to continue the building of Jerusalem. That fits the English meaning of "restore", as in "to restore to its former state", but it does not fit the meaning of the Hebrew verb here, which means to cause the return of Jerusalem. This can only refer to the initial command by Cyrus to return Jerusalem to the Jews. Though the English is a little awkward, I would translate it as "to cause the return of and to build Jerusalem".
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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