What common word has the meaning of כּבר?

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Stephen Hughes
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What common word has the meaning of כּבר?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

I'm afraid that this question is probably a bit beyond my pay-grade, but I'd be interested in getting a good context for this word anyway.

I right in guessing that because כּבר "make many" (words)only occurs in Job (35:16 & 36:31), that the word as brought with the story, and while it was understood, it was not used actively in Hebrew? What would be the usual Hebrew word to express this meaning?
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
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SteveMiller
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Re: What common word has the meaning of כּבר?

Post by SteveMiller »

The adjective form כַּ֜בִּיר is used in 9 verses, only Job and Isa. Job 8:2; 15:10; 31:25; 34:17; 34:24; 36:5; Isa 16:14; 17:12; 28:2.

A common word, similar in meaning would be יִ֥רֶב (Gen 1:22).
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
kwrandolph
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Re: What common word has the meaning of כּבר?

Post by kwrandolph »

Stephen Hughes wrote:I right in guessing that because כּבר "make many" (words)only occurs in Job (35:16 & 36:31), that the word as brought with the story, and while it was understood, it was not used actively in Hebrew? What would be the usual Hebrew word to express this meaning?
Actually, this is more poetic—Job is “spreading out” words without knowledge.

Looking at the meaning of the word and its derivatives, one gets the following:

‎כבר to become spread out, expansive, draw out (length and breadth, both area and time) Jb 35:16 ?? → כביר expansive as in drawn out in breadth Is 16:14, 17:12, 28:2 and/or time Jb 8:2, 15:10, 34:17, used metaphorically to refer to wealth (spread of fields, livestock spread out on it) Jb 31:25, those who cause to draw out (time) Jb 34:24, blanket (spread) 1S 13:13, 16, כבר expanse, כברה spread out place, i.e. wide open space Am 9:9 αλ, כברת distance Gn 35:16, 48:7, 2K 5:19, מכביר one who spreads out (distributes) Jb 36:31 αλ, מכבר blanket 2K 8:15; lattice, grate Ex 27:4, 38:4, 39:39

Hope this helps.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Stephen Hughes
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A useful insight into the methodology

Post by Stephen Hughes »

kwrandolph wrote:Looking at the meaning of the word and its derivatives
It is useful to both to understand this word, and to see how you have gone about finding the meaning of the word. Is the method you have used one of the usual ways of doing that?
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
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Stephen Hughes
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Adjectival forms and prefixed yod

Post by Stephen Hughes »

SteveMiller wrote:The adjective form כַּ֜בִּיר is used in 9 verses, only Job and Isa. Job 8:2; 15:10; 31:25; 34:17; 34:24; 36:5; Isa 16:14; 17:12; 28:2.
I think what you are implying is that there is an assumption that the verbal and adjectival forms of a word have more or less the same meaning. Am I blind for looking for it, or is there a way to find an adjectival form for a verbal form?
SteveMiller wrote:A common word, similar in meaning would be יִ֥רֶב (Gen 1:22).
I guessed it might be. What is the yod on the front of the word? Is it a verbal marker? or a causitive? or a way of forming denominal verbs?
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
kwrandolph
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Re: A useful insight into the methodology

Post by kwrandolph »

Stephen:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:Looking at the meaning of the word and its derivatives
It is useful to both to understand this word, and to see how you have gone about finding the meaning of the word. Is the method you have used one of the usual ways of doing that?
I think it is.

I start with looking up a word in all the times it’s used—well, of those words used fewer than 100 times. By the time I started writing my dictionary, I had already read Tanakh through cover to cover over five times, so most words used more than 50 times were already familiar to me as to their meanings. Also words used more than 50 times are usually pretty well understood by anyone who has studied Biblical Hebrew.

The next step is to try to coax out a meaning that fits all its contexts. That doesn’t mean that the word is used exactly the same in all contexts, as it could sometimes be literally, sometimes metaphorically.but the same action is referenced.

Words used fewer than five times start getting dicey, that’s where consulting roots and derivatives together are analyzed to try to figure out an understanding (on common words roots and derivatives were consulted, but there they were not as important). There one needs to be careful, are these really a root/derivative pair, or just words that look similar because they share the same letters? All too often they are the latter. So while root/derivative studies are useful, avoid the etymological error of trying to make connections based merely on form where etymologies don’t exist.

The same is true when looking to cognate languages—just because words look similar doesn’t mean they have the same definition. In fact, this can be a type of etymological error.

There are some words where I have to admit that I don’t have enough information to give a definition.

To repeat, the most important way of finding definitions is to look at words, how they are used in their contexts. That trumps all other methods, including etymological studies and cognate language studies.

Karl W. Randolph.
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SteveMiller
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Re: Adjectival forms and prefixed yod

Post by SteveMiller »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:The adjective form כַּ֜בִּיר is used in 9 verses, only Job and Isa. Job 8:2; 15:10; 31:25; 34:17; 34:24; 36:5; Isa 16:14; 17:12; 28:2.
I think what you are implying is that there is an assumption that the verbal and adjectival forms of a word have more or less the same meaning. Am I blind for looking for it, or is there a way to find an adjectival form for a verbal form?
I just meant to say that this word wasn't that uncommon if you include the non-verbal forms of it. In this case the meanings of the verb and adjective are about the same, but I don't know enough to generalize.
The only way I know to get the adjectival from for a verbal and vice versa is to look it up in a lexicon, which is what I did here.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:A common word, similar in meaning would be יִ֥רֶב (Gen 1:22).
I guessed it might be. What is the yod on the front of the word? Is it a verbal marker? or a causitive? or a way of forming denominal verbs?
The leading yod makes it sm3 imperfect qal form of the verb רבב.
It would have been a better match to your word if I had given the causative form, which is יַרְבִּיב.
As far as I know, it is unusual to have a verb derived from a noun in Hebrew. It is usually vice-versa. But the example you gave of כבר seems to be one according to TWOT.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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