Where are the case endings in Hebrew?

[Ray Harder]

Is it generally accepted that Genesis was written down by Moses? What were the light-weight and durable materials available to write on at that time?

I REALLY hesitate to answer your first question because it is so fraught with religious implications and my answer here will probably set off a war of words akin to the crusades! This is bound to become the very definition of a “flame war.” This is really a can of worms!!!!! Asking if it is generally accepted that Moses wrote the pentateuch is akin to asking if “global warming” is generally accepted or if the theory of evolution is generally accepted. Or asking 500 years ago if the heliocentric view of the solar system is generally accepted. Yours has largely become a religious question rather than an historical one.

Therefore, let me answer the second question first because it is easier. If we accept that there was a person named Moses in the mid second millennium BC/BCE who wrote “the Torah” (as it is called in Jewish tradition) or “the Pentateuch” (as it is called in scholarly Christian tradition), he may have had available to him papyrus. There are extant examples of papyrus texts from this period in Egypt. (E.g. the “Edwin Smith medical papyrus,” the “Ebers medical papyrus,” the “Turin erotic papyrus” etc. See an ostensibly accurate list of extant first and second millennium BC papyri at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an ... ian_papyri) There are no extant papyri from Israel from the mid second millennium BC, but because of a wetter climate, it is likely that if they ever existed in this region, they have perished. From the centuries just before the NT period, there are some extant papyri among the so called “Dead Sea Scrolls.” The climate around Qumran is similar to Egypt. I would not therefore consider papyrus “durable” though it is lightweight

Also among the Qumran texts (AKA. “Dead Sea Scrolls”) are some texts on leather. I do not recall any leather texts from Israel earlier than the dead sea scrolls. A text the size of the Torah would physically require over 100 of feet of parchment! (The Isaiah scroll from Qumran is nearly 25 feet ((734 cm) long and Isaiah is only 66 chapters in the MT of the bible.)

There are written texts on ostraca (broken shards of clay pottery) found in Israel dating from a millennium or so after the period we are assigning to Moses for purposes of discussion. However, if Moses wrote on ostraca, the Torah texts would require over 5,000 ostraca even if one whole verse were written on each one! (The average verse is much longer than the average length of text on an ostraca.)

There exist no examples of Hebrew written in cuneiform. But if we postulate Mosaic authorship at this period it would be possible/likely? that these texts would have been written in some form of Hebrew in a script like Ugaritic on clay. This also would have required hundreds or more likely thousands of tablets.

It is conceivable that Moses would have written on clay, stone, papyrus, parchment, or ostraca and then the texts were hauled around palestine for centuries by nomads during the early wars of the Israeli’s occupation as recorded in Judges, Samuel-Kings etc., but this stretches the limits of credulity and therefore should probably be called a religious/faith-based belief and not an historical/scholarly one. It is not generally accepted in non-religious scholarly circles that Moses wrote the Torah.

Many religious scholars who believe the Torah was given by God to Moses believe in the Mosaic authorship thereof. Most secular scholars no longer hold this belief. Authorship of the Torah is generally placed as much as a full millennium later than the period Moses would have lived

Let the flames begin!
Ray

[Stephen Hughes]

My approach is to read, read and read some more, let the language wash over me. Don’t get too bogged down in minutiae especially at the beginning.

In terms of language learning, what you have referred to as you preferred method is called "extensive reading", and that is usually undertaken from lower or mid- intermediate level. Looking in depth at the minutiae is called "intensive reading". That is the way that the text is usually read in Bible colleges and seminaries.

In langauge learning, those two are generally accompanied by vocabulary training (including recitation), composition, grammar classes, syntax awareness, listening practice, conversational practice and pronunciation training. All of those together, it is hoped, will make a well-rounded language user.

Let me warn you that the Hebrew taught by Randall Buth is not Biblical, but medieval or possibly even a mixture of medieval and modern Hebrews. The grammar is very different from Biblical Hebrew, but it may be a way to learn the vocabulary.

Within the things that people do to learn language, Randall Buth's course might constitute a part of a whole. Is there a significant different between Biblical and Randall Buth's Hebrew, in your opinion.

[Stephen Hughes]

Is it generally accepted that Genesis was written down by Moses? What were the light-weight and durable materials available to write on at that time?

your first question because it is so fraught with religious implications and ... has largely become a religious question rather than an historical one.
...
There are extant examples of papyrus texts from this period in Egypt. (E.g. the “Edwin Smith medical papyrus,” the “Ebers medical papyrus,” the “Turin erotic papyrus” etc. ... It is conceivable that Moses would have written on clay, stone, papyrus, parchment, or ostraca and then the texts were hauled around palestine for centuries by nomads during the early wars of the Israeli’s occupation as recorded in Judges, Samuel-Kings etc., but this stretches the limits of credulity and therefore should probably be called a religious/faith-based belief and not an historical/scholarly one. ... Many religious scholars who believe the Torah was given by God to Moses believe in the Mosaic authorship thereof. Most secular scholars no longer hold this belief. Authorship of the Torah is generally placed as much as a full millennium later than the period Moses would have lived

That information that you have provided seems to be an "unbiased" account of the various viewpoints held by people, and I thank you for that. Aristotle said some thing to the effect that it is the mark of educated person to be able to hold in mind an opinion without actually hold to it. I think that a "flame war" with both sides participating, would (at the very least) prove the impartiality of your scholarship.

As you can see, from the letters in my signature - and as indeed it seems many participants in forums have more extensive qualifications than me - I do, as likely as not because of the education that has been offerred to me by others, not have a problem in reading material written from many viewpoints and forming an opinion. There is a recogniseable degree of subjectivity in all scholarship - that is to be expected - and for the reader it is necessary to work with that, as indeed you have done very well.

However, my question, albiet poorly worded, was I thought testing the possible orality of the Biblical tradition. I was wondering if "scripture" had been passed down by word-of-mouth before it had been written down?

[kwrandolph]

Is it generally accepted that Genesis was written down by Moses? What were the light-weight and durable materials available to write on at that time?

I REALLY hesitate to answer your first question because it is so fraught with religious implications and my answer here will probably set off a war of words akin to the crusades! … Yours has largely become a religious question rather than an historical one.

This is why I posted my beliefs in the personal introduction part of this forum, so it wouldn’t lead to a flame war.

Therefore, let me answer the second question first because it is easier. … (don’t need to quote the whole)

Let the flames begin!
Ray

You leave out two points — history records that there was a sizable pastoral portion of the population from the time of the patriarchs up through the DSS period, so there was more than enough parchment for the complete Tanakh throughout Jewish history. I talk about multiple copies, not just one.

Second point is the practice of making copies of important religious documents that has been common throughout history over all the literate world. There’s no reason to assume that ancient Hebrews didn’t follow that practice, and that the worn-out copies rotted away after being discarded. The unanswerable question: how accurate were their copies?

Karl W. Randolph.

[kwrandolph]

My approach is to read, read and read some more, let the language wash over me. Don’t get too bogged down in minutiae especially at the beginning.

In terms of language learning, what you have referred to as you preferred method is called "extensive reading", and that is usually undertaken from lower or mid- intermediate level. Looking in depth at the minutiae is called "intensive reading". That is the way that the text is usually read in Bible colleges and seminaries.

This section of the forum is aimed at beginning to intermediate learners of the language, hence my answer. There’s another section of this forum devoted to advanced learning, and there I do get into the minutiae.

Another reason not to get bogged down in the minutiae, especially for beginning to intermediate students, is that it could lead to frustration and stopping reading. It’s better to skip a verse to get on reading what is understood, than to keep butting one’s head against a single verse (which could be difficult because of incorrect pointing or a copyist error) and not getting anywhere.

In langauge learning, those two are generally accompanied by vocabulary training (including recitation),

Vocabulary, of course. But recitation? (see below)

composition,

There’s a danger that composition without good knowledge of the language can lead to acquiring bad practices in the language.

grammar classes, syntax awareness,

This is assuming that the grammar and syntax taught in class is accurate. In Biblical Hebrew, unfortunately, that is too often not the case. I had to unlearn much of what I was taught in class based on the reading I did later.

listening practice, conversational practice and pronunciation training.

We don’t know Biblical Hebrew pronunciation. What the Masoretes recorded was the tradition of their time and place. What’s the probability that the Masoretic pronunciation was the same as Biblical pronunciation? I’d say almost nil.

One question I’ve raised — was Biblical Hebrew written as a syllabary, with each letter a consonant followed by a vowel? One evidence is that when reading poetry as a syllabary, the words come out with a cadence, a rhythm that is lacking in modern pronunciation based on the Masoretic points.

All of those together, it is hoped, will make a well-rounded language user.

Unfortunately, here our goal is not to make a well-rounded language user, rather merely one who is a good reader of a dead language. Hopefully, being a good reader includes understanding all the minutiae that stump casual readers.

Let me warn you that the Hebrew taught by Randall Buth is not Biblical, but medieval or possibly even a mixture of medieval and modern Hebrews. The grammar is very different from Biblical Hebrew, but it may be a way to learn the vocabulary.

Within the things that people do to learn language, Randall Buth's course might constitute a part of a whole. Is there a significant different between Biblical and Randall Buth's Hebrew, in your opinion.

Definitely yes.

While the vocabulary and word forms are for the most part Biblical, his grammar and syntax are not. What they are, I can only guess, for all I know is Biblical Hebrew.

His pronunciation is modern.

Karl W. Randolph.

[kwrandolph]

Is it generally accepted that Genesis was written down by Moses? What were the light-weight and durable materials available to write on at that time?

your first question because it is so fraught with religious implications and ... has largely become a religious question rather than an historical one.

...

However, my question, albiet poorly worded, was I thought testing the possible orality of the Biblical tradition. I was wondering if "scripture" had been passed down by word-of-mouth before it had been written down?

Why would anyone question whether or not it was written down from the beginning? Were not for the speculation that Hebrews were backwards and illiterate before getting the alphabet from the Phoenicians? I think it’s more likely that the Phoenicians learned the alphabet from the Hebrews. And that Moses wrote Torah.

Karl W. Randolph.

[George Athas]

For the record, there is a sizable portion of the scholarly community (probably a majority?) who conclude Moses did not write the Pentateuch. That being said, please remember this is a forum for discussing Hebrew language and literature. Keep on topic, folks.

[kwrandolph]

For the record, there is a sizable portion of the scholarly community (probably a majority?) who conclude Moses did not write the Pentateuch. That being said, please remember this is a forum for discussing Hebrew language and literature. Keep on topic, folks.

George:

You’re right, my poor choice of words here.

What I meant is that there’s no evidence of a long, oral tradition that was later written down.

That answers the question that was asked directly.

While there’s internal claims of Mosaic authorship, a type of evidence, there’s neither external corroboration nor external disproof of those claims. Nor is there internal linguistic evidence of a long oral tradition. And there’s some evidence that Genesis may have been compiled from earlier written documents. While there’s external evidence that Moses could have written Torah, other than in the Bible, there’s no evidence from other sources that says he did.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Stephen Hughes]

Well...
That is interesting but bleak picture .

Now, since the Masoritic pointing is not accurate, the original pronunciation is unknown, Randall Buth's pronunciation grammar and syntax are all late, the text shows no signs of having been oral at one stage or another, the grammar that is learnt in seminaries should be unlearnt later, experts disagree on minutiae, the only thing left is vocabulary but that is difficult to acquire easily forgotten after exams and cognates are of only a little use, it is no wonder that I have been having trouble with it since my first attempts to learn the language many, many years ago.

[Stephen Hughes]

In langauge learning, those two are generally accompanied by vocabulary training (including recitation),

Vocabulary, of course. But recitation? (see below)

Not just from reading from a book, nor just reciting vocabulary. There seems to be a different type of result achieved for pronunciation practice that can be achieved when student recite some famous passages or other. That recitation of short sentences or famous passages would be in addition to the recitation of individual items of vocabulary. That would aid acquistion of collocation information, syntax and (not in the case of dead language) sentence intonation and stress.