Where are the case endings in Hebrew?

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Stephen Hughes
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Where are the case endings in Hebrew?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

I have a few questions, which I can't find answers for myslef. If they are not worth answering, please ignore them.

The case ending system doesn't see to be marked in the Hebrew text. So far as I can see, they don't seem to appear in the Secunda either. Is all that is left of the case-endings that which is found in changes to construct forms?

When did the definite article appear? Does it replace (or coexist with) emphatic forms? Does nunation occur in the absence of the definite article?
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
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SteveMiller
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Re: Where are the case endings in Hebrew?

Post by SteveMiller »

Stephen,
The questions may be worth answering, but they are over my head.

What do you mean by:
case ending system
marked
changes to construct forms
emphatic forms
nunation?
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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Stephen Hughes
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Clarrification of my question about cases in Hebrew.

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Of well, I usually ask stupid ignorant questions, and admittedly, these questions are way over my head and really just grasping at straws, and you should feel free to dismiss them according to as they obviously appear to be ignorantly posed.

Your long list of "please clarifies" is interesting. It means you are able to read and know Hebrew without any of the knowledge needed to understand those questions. I was fortunate to learn some Arabic from a Christian priest from Mossul, Iraq. He also tried to teach me (western) Syriac - but without much success. I also learnt some Akkadian to try to read the Amarna correspondence some years ago. So for me, Hebrew is one of a family, perhaps for you Hebrew is more sui generis. Those two different approaches of ours don't need to get in the way of communication, because we are working towards the same goal, but from different assumed knowledge starting points.
SteveMiller wrote:What do you mean by: case ending system
I mean like the system of endings in Akkadian (and other semitic languages)
[I'm sorry, I don't know why the table has moved itself down the page]:
Number and Case
Masculine
Feminine
Nominative singularšarr-umšarr-at-um
Genitive singularšarr-imšarr-at-im
Accusative singularšarr-amšarr-at-am
-
Nominative dualšarr-ānšarr-at-ān
Oblique dualšarr-īnšarr-at-īn
-
Nominative pluralšarr-ūšarr-āt-um
Oblique pluralšarr-īšarr-āt-im
The same sort of thing is true for Classical Arabic too, only the situation there is much more complex.
SteveMiller wrote:What do you mean by: marked
That is my imprecise language, I mean, "Why can't I see the cases spelt out in writing". My thinking is coming from Arabic where the case endings of the words are not always written / spoken - but they could be added if required. The OT is a formal book, I was wondering why they were not written. Probably an "off" question.
SteveMiller wrote:What do you mean by: changes to construct forms
The dropping of the מ for example when it means "of".
SteveMiller wrote:What do you mean by: Emphatic forms
This is a term from Aramaic, for one of the three types of nouns. If it is not the same in Hebrew, then don't worry about it.
SteveMiller wrote:What do you mean by: nunation
Putting the "n" on the unemphatic forms, such as you can see in the singular forms in Akkadian table. It is something that was drilled into me when I was studying formal Arabic. If you don't recognise it don't worry about it.

On the whole, I believe that having a reading knowledge of a language is superior to knowing a few little details like what I am asking about here.
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
kwrandolph
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Re: Where are the case endings in Hebrew?

Post by kwrandolph »

Stephen Hughes wrote:I have a few questions, which I can't find answers for myslef. If they are not worth answering, please ignore them.

The case ending system doesn't see to be marked in the Hebrew text. So far as I can see, they don't seem to appear in the Secunda either. Is all that is left of the case-endings that which is found in changes to construct forms?

When did the definite article appear? Does it replace (or coexist with) emphatic forms? Does nunation occur in the absence of the definite article?
You have asked questions that can’t be answered, as there are no surviving documents that can answer them.

When Moses quoted earlier documents when he compiled Genesis in the 15th century BC, did he update the language as well, or was the language already in that form? All we can tell for certain is that the documents were in portable format, therefore not cuneiform on clay tablets. If Moses didn’t update the language, then the evidence is that Hebrew never had case endings and always had the definite article.

Moabite split off from Hebrew centuries before Moses, yet as late as the Mesha stele, written Moabite was so close to Hebrew that it can be read as a Hebrew dialect, about as close as Norwegian is to Swedish.

I don’t have enough information to answer your other questions.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Where are the case endings in Hebrew?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

kwrandolph wrote:You have asked questions that can’t be answered, as there are no surviving documents that can answer them.
Okay. I can see pretty clearly from the big dictionaries that use is made of other languages for word meanings. From yours and Mike's answer I guess that that is not the case with grammar. That is good to know to set the direction forward.
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
kwrandolph
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Re: Where are the case endings in Hebrew?

Post by kwrandolph »

Stephen:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Okay. I can see pretty clearly from the big dictionaries that use is made of other languages for word meanings. From yours and Mike's answer I guess that that is not the case with grammar.
Actually, even with finding word meanings by using cognate languages can be problematical.

For example, שכח in Aramaic means “to find” while in Biblical Hebrew “to forget”. That’s not the only example of widely different meanings, even among close cognate languages. Then there are some cases where a word is used only once of a few times where the context doesn’t give enough information so we can extract a meaning, yet none of the meanings found in the cognate languages fit the contexts.

More often it’s a nuance of meaning where the cognate language meanings can lead astray.

Even top scholars disagree on Biblical Hebrew grammar, let alone comparing it with the grammars of cognate languages.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Stephen Hughes
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Recording and adopting Hebrew.

Post by Stephen Hughes »

kwrandolph wrote:When Moses quoted earlier documents when he compiled Genesis in the 15th century BC, did he update the language as well, or was the language already in that form? All we can tell for certain is that the documents were in portable format, therefore not cuneiform on clay tablets. If Moses didn’t update the language, then the evidence is that Hebrew never had case endings and always had the definite article.

Moabite split off from Hebrew centuries before Moses, yet as late as the Mesha stele, written Moabite was so close to Hebrew that it can be read as a Hebrew dialect, about as close as Norwegian is to Swedish.
Is it generally accepted that Genesis was written down by Moses? What were the light-weight and durable materials available to write on at that time?

It have preiviously read the theory that the Hebrews learnt Hebrew after arriving in Canaan after the Exodus. It would make sense to me that Hebrew always had the definite article and never had endings if it was a language adopted by a people, rather than which developed with that people. Like, "Hebrew has always been like this (for as long as we have been using it)".
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
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Stephen Hughes
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Not for comparision but for learning by analogy.

Post by Stephen Hughes »

kwrandolph wrote:Even top scholars disagree on Biblical Hebrew grammar, let alone comparing it with the grammars of cognate languages.
I wasn't thinking of making scholarly comparisions. I'm sure it was much easier for Jackie Chan to learn Mandarin than it was for me, because he knew Cantonese to work from. My first two attempts at Hebrew have "blind-alley"ed. In the meantime, I have acquired some knowledge of other semitic languages, which I hope will help me with this present Attempt at Biblical Hebrew.
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
kwrandolph
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Re: Recording and adopting Hebrew.

Post by kwrandolph »

Stephen Hughes wrote:Is it generally accepted that Genesis was written down by Moses? What were the light-weight and durable materials available to write on at that time?
Light weight? Leather parchment. They had lots of it. As long as they took care of it, it could last centuries. A small library would weigh less than their tents.
Stephen Hughes wrote:I have preiviously read the theory that the Hebrews learnt Hebrew after arriving in Canaan after the Exodus.…
That Moses wrote in Hebrew during the Exodus before the people entered the land argues against that theory.
Stephen Hughes wrote:I'm sure it was much easier for Jackie Chan to learn Mandarin than it was for me, because he knew Cantonese to work from.
聽見話 a Cantonese person never gets rid of his Cantonese way of saying things when he speaks Mandarin, or at least it’s difficult for him to do so, because of the differences between the languages. I note that whenever I try to say anything in Mandarin, people immediately answer “Oh, you speak Cantonese.” Yet Cantonese and Mandarin are closer than most cognate languages to Biblical Hebrew, and with that I include Mishnaic and modern Hebrews as cognate languages.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Stephen Hughes
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The problem is that Hebrew is foreign

Post by Stephen Hughes »

kwrandolph wrote:聽見話 a Cantonese person never gets rid of his Cantonese way of saying things when he speaks Mandarin, or at least it’s difficult for him to do so, because of the differences between the languages. I note that whenever I try to say anything in Mandarin, people immediately answer “Oh, you speak Cantonese.” Yet Cantonese and Mandarin are closer than most cognate languages to Biblical Hebrew, and with that I include Mishnaic and modern Hebrews as cognate languages.
Do you have a different suggestion for overcoming the barrier of "foreigness"? I learnt Coptic before I learn't Middle Egyptian, and I found that recognising even 10% of the vocab was a really great help in overcoming the negative feelings of approaching something new and unfamiliar.
Stephen Hughes BA (Greek), BTh, MA (Egyptology)
וַאֲהַבְתֶּ֖ם אֶת־הַגֵּ֑ר כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃ (Deut. 10:19)
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