Job 23: verses 12 and 17

A place for those new to Biblical Hebrew to ask basic questions about the language of the Hebrew Bible.
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
Post Reply
User avatar
Galena
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Ireland

Job 23: verses 12 and 17

Post by Galena »

כי־לא נצמתי מפני־חשך ומפני כסה־אפל׃

.."because I was not cut off from before the darkness neither has he covered the darkness from my face" Robert Alter says that ambiguity in hebrew should not be a cause for confusion but a rhetorical device for enrichment in meaning, words that I agree with. Verses 10 to 16 provide this in chapter 23 but verse 17 had me stumped especially since I could not agree with the standard English translations that I have read. Until I came across this in a PDF that I have where a footnote says: "...not from the darkness am I dismayed nor yet because thick darkness veils my face" This makes sense seeing the context and is a perfect continuation from the previous verse. My question is; do others agree? is there poetical justification for such an interpretation?

מצות פתיו ולא אמיש מחקי צפנתי אמרי־פיו

And if anyone has a Koren jerusalem bible I would be grateful to know what it says in verse 12 as well. I see no idiom, let alone hebrew translation, that justifies the expression "My necessary food"?
"...from what is appointed for me I have treasured/hidden the words of His mouth" "What is appointed for me" is used in verse 14. Again this agrees with the context that He has not turned back from following the Lord. He hides up His words? The hebrew is emphatic here surely?

Kind regards
Chris Watts
Chris Watts
kwrandolph
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Job 23: verses 12 and 17

Post by kwrandolph »

Verse 12:
Galena wrote:מצות פתיו ולא אמיש מחקי צפנתי אמרי־פיו

And if anyone has a Koren jerusalem bible I would be grateful to know what it says in verse 12 as well.
I used to have a Koren edition, but it fell apart. I never found anywhere where it differed in the consonantal text from WLC, which is as follows:

מצות שפתיו ולא אמיש    מחקי צפנתי אמרי-פיו

Where did you get the text that you quoted above?

Karl W. Randolph.
User avatar
Galena
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Job 23: verses 12 and 17

Post by Galena »

My mistake, I copied and pasted and there is a 'shin' missing from 'His lips' in verse 12. The fault is with bible hub (http://biblehub.com/wlco/job/23.htm). I write hebrew in apple pages using an intuitive keyboard but find the SBL font keyboard so unintuitive, where it takes 20 seconds for me to type a verse in apple's pages and text edit, it takes 5 minutes for me to type the same verse here on the forum. So I have to copy and paste and did not think it necessary to check the actual hebrew on this site, so am surprised at this. I see other mistakes as well.
Chris Watts
Chris Watts
User avatar
Kirk Lowery
Site Admin
Posts: 363
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Job 23: verses 12 and 17

Post by Kirk Lowery »

<immodest_self_promotion>

If you want just the consonantal text, and not have to worry about typing or proofing, then there is a solution: The WLC is available online at the Tanach website. Christopher Kimball, the website's maintainer, has set things up so that after going to the text, you can choose consonants only, with vowels, and with accents. There's a dropdown menu on the top right, and you can choose consonants. Then you can either just read the text or else copy and paste the UTF-8 encoded text into your preferred application. It would save a lot of typing, errors and frustration.

Just trying to be helpful. :D

</immodest_self_promotion>
Kirk E. Lowery, PhD
B-Hebrew Site Administrator & Moderator
blog: https://blogs.emdros.org/eh
User avatar
Galena
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Job 23: verses 12 and 17

Post by Galena »

Dear Kirk, appreciate this enormously, thankyou.
Chris Watts
Chris Watts
kwrandolph
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Job 23: verses 12 and 17

Post by kwrandolph »

Galena wrote:My mistake, I copied and pasted and there is a 'shin' missing from 'His lips' in verse 12. The fault is with bible hub (http://biblehub.com/wlco/job/23.htm).
Another option that I use is from http://www.crosswire.org . They have software for many platforms and texts in UTF-8 in many languages, including WLC and Aleppo Codex. I have found a mistake in the Aleppo Codex, and so far they have refused to fix it (the final verses in Job are missing) but that one doesn’t even differentiate the sin and shin. Points can be turned off for the WLC.
Galena wrote: I write hebrew in apple pages using an intuitive keyboard but find the SBL font keyboard so unintuitive,…
The Mac OS X gives two options when entering text in Hebrew—modern Israeli and one based on QWERTY. I decided years ago to learn the Israeli keyboard for the consonantal text, but not the dots. No, I don’t type as quickly in Hebrew as I do in English, but it is touch typing, not hunt-and-peck. One thing that Mac does to make it easer to learn is that you can open a small window that shows the key mapping, where the letters are found on the keyboard, and observe that while learning.

Yet, when copying verses, it’s much easier to copy and paste. And easier to copy and paste from a text on my computer than through a browser on line.

Karl W. Randolph.
User avatar
Galena
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Job 23: verses 12 and 17

Post by Galena »

Hi Karl, " hunt-and-peck" - a witty description, just like my two ducks outside. I have seen crosswire, but decided to stay with LC, my other keyboard is marked in black dots everywhere with the vowels on each key, that's how I can type fast - but I do not know the hebrew keyboard. Thanks for the info though.
Kind regards
chris
Chris Watts
Post Reply