Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

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Galena
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Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

Post by Galena »

צור ילדך תשי The word תשי according to Gesenius comes from the root shin-hey hey, where the middle hey is replaced by a yod. However, Even-Shoshan takes the root as nun-shin-heh. What is more Gesenius lists only one meaning - Forget. Even-Shoshan has three meanings: Sinew (Gen 32:33 heb version); Lend; neglect or forget. I always assume, in cases of conflict, that Even-Shoshan carries more authority, but I would value peoples' comments on the root and also if you have any insights regards the three different meanings.

Kind regards
Chris.
Chris Watts
kwrandolph
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Re: Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

Post by kwrandolph »

Galena wrote:צור ילדך תשי
Look at the context. The verses around this one referring to a people who are putting God out of their mind, and God’s reaction to that.

I read it as “You put out of mind the rock, the one that brought your forth.” with the root being נשה. The meaning of נשה being “to put out of mind”.

The verb נשה is found in only eight verses (as far as I know), Genesis 41:51, Deuteronomy 32:18, Isaiah 44:21, Jeremiah 15:10, 23:39, Job 11:6, 39:17, Lamentations 3:17.

The translators of the LXX put εγκατελιπες in this verse. The DSS has only part of the verse, not including this word.
Galena wrote:The word תשי according to Gesenius comes from the root shin-hey hey, where the middle hey is replaced by a yod. However, Even-Shoshan takes the root as nun-shin-heh. What is more Gesenius lists only one meaning - Forget. Even-Shoshan has three meanings: Sinew (Gen 32:33 heb version); Lend; neglect or forget. I always assume, in cases of conflict, that Even-Shoshan carries more authority, but I would value peoples' comments on the root and also if you have any insights regards the three different meanings.

Kind regards
Chris.
I disagree with Gesenius, that this is a word that is used only once.

Even-Shoshan has combined different words that are homographs. We don’t know if they were homonyms, as we don’t know how they were pronounced. There are three homographs here. One is a noun, used in only one verse, and the other two are verbs. In this case, the context tells us which verb to choose.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Galena
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Re: Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

Post by Galena »

Hallo Karl, yes, the meaning within this context was not difficult to assume. But I like your translation because it carries a more sinister weight to it as opposed to the accidental/human tendency as a result of carelessness to forget in שׁכח
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Chris Watts
Jemoh66
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Re: Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

Post by Jemoh66 »

Chris,

The act of forgetting is only "accidental/human . . . carelessness" within context. The word itself does not convey this meaning. When you say to a friend, "forget about," you are not telling him to "accidental" forget, nor are hoping for his "human tendency of carelessness" to kick in. In fact, you are telling him to "put it out of his mind."

Notice God commands us to "remember." שמע just means remember, but the way it is used, particularly in conjunction with the commandments, suggests obedience. While the word itself doesn't carry that meaning, its usage does.

Jonathan Mohler



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Galena
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Re: Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

Post by Galena »

Jonathan, I absolutely agree with your reasoning, however,I don't think we can use English mannerisms to confine hebrew usage to our ideas. I could use two dutch words to explain a subtle difference between the word 'forget' in dutch which are used Interchangeably, yet subtle differences in meaning under differing circumstances, I am sure all languages have this. I see the hebrew root NaSHa meaning to utterly desert, to be absent of any memory, and the second, more common word, appears to invoke that 'ordinary' forgetfulness through replacement of other thoughts and processes or simply, can't be bothered to remember. Lamentations 3:17 invokes a feeling of 'removal' of prosperity rather than forgot about it. In both Genesis 41:51 and Isaiah 44:21 there is without a doubt a conscious removal of the thing to be remembered.

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chris
Chris Watts
Jemoh66
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Re: Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

Post by Jemoh66 »

Chris,
You wrote,
I don't think we can use English mannerisms to confine hebrew usage to our ideas.
I am only using English as a tangible analogy. I am not imposing an English paradigm on BH. My example simply points out that words usually have basic meaning, and added nuance only plays in when the speaker chooses to add that nuance with context. I am not saying that BH speakers used the expression "forget about it," I am just pointing out that just as the English word "forget" carries no such nuance, so נחם has a basic semantic to it, but with usage the speaker can expand that semantic range. The expanded meanings are not necessarily inherent to the word itself.

Jonathan Mohler
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Galena
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Re: Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

Post by Galena »

Jemoh66 wrote:Chris,
You wrote,
I don't think we can use English mannerisms to confine hebrew usage to our ideas.
I am only using English as a tangible analogy. I am not imposing an English paradigm on BH. My example simply points out that words usually have basic meaning, and added nuance only plays in when the speaker chooses to add that nuance with context. I am not saying that BH speakers used the expression "forget about it," I am just pointing out that just as the English word "forget" carries no such nuance, so נחם has a basic semantic to it, but with usage the speaker can expand that semantic range. The expanded meanings are not necessarily inherent to the word itself.

Jonathan Mohler
Hallo Jonathan,
I think the communication lines might have got crossed here. Your response above was to 'comfort' to which I agreed fully, and in fact is on another thread. I am referring to the word for forget. I understood clearly what you had said and still agree with you, especially I understood what you were not implying, I see that. My response however emphasises a certain nuance in the usage here of this word and I simply do not agree with the fact that ....it is simply another word for forget and leave it at that... if you understand what I am trying to say : as I said before :..... invokes a feeling of 'removal' rather than forgot about it...... and I gave examples.

Kindest regards
Chris
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Jemoh66
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Re: Deut 32:18 Un-mindful

Post by Jemoh66 »

Hi Chris,

In this sense, I agree with you. Where a language has synonyms, it often uses them to distinguish between nuanced meanings. This is often a result of borrowing. E.g., before the Norman invasion, England had two words for fruit: pear and apple, depending on what part of the Isle one was from. When the French word FRUIT came into the common tongue, it became the generic word for fruit, and over time the words pear and apple were each confined to a particular fruit. In BH I suspect that synonyms occur either dialectically (Israeli vs Judean), or they cooccur where one is more broad than the other. In the latter case, I would suspect that one of the synonyms is borrowed.

Jonathan Mohler
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