אשה = Woman or Burnt Offering? (H801 & H802)

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jdhadwin
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אשה = Woman or Burnt Offering? (H801 & H802)

Postby jdhadwin » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:55 pm

Hello everyone,

I have a question about how the ancient readers of Hebrew would know whether אשה meant woman/wife or burnt-offering/fire-offering. Is context the only thing that allows the reader to know the difference?

I know that all the extra cantillation and vowel marks are relatively new to Hebrew. I know that Strongs H801 and H802 appear to only be distinguishable from one another because of these modern marks. But before the marks existed was there any other way to discern the difference between H801 (אִשֶּׁה) & H802 (אִשָּׁה). Weren't they both just אשה before?

Thank you for your help!

~John

kwrandolph
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Re: אשה = Woman or Burnt Offering? (H801 & H802)

Postby kwrandolph » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:30 am

jdhadwin wrote:Hello everyone,

I have a question about how the ancient readers of Hebrew would know whether אשה meant woman/wife or burnt-offering/fire-offering. Is context the only thing that allows the reader to know the difference?


Yes.

That’s why we usually ask for people to provide contexts when they ask questions. (Your question doesn’t need examples.)

jdhadwin wrote:I know that all the extra cantillation and vowel marks are relatively new to Hebrew. I know that Strongs H801 and H802 appear to only be distinguishable from one another because of these modern marks. But before the marks existed was there any other way to discern the difference between H801 (אִשֶּׁה) & H802 (אִשָּׁה). Weren't they both just אשה before?


Yes.

Strongs was not a Hebrew scholar, hence we usually don’t accept his numbers as evidence. Personally, if you provided only the numbers, I would have to ask to which words they apply, as I don’t have any way to follow up on Strongs’ numbers.

jdhadwin wrote:Thank you for your help!

~John


The rules of this forum ask that you provide your full name, as I do below. Extra information may be provided, but that’s optional.

Karl W. Randolph.

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Galena
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Re: אשה = Woman or Burnt Offering? (H801 & H802)

Postby Galena » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:26 pm

Adding my two-penneth:

....the rebellion was fierce and the people were discouraged but He fought hard and died and the people then asked, where is the will?........

Does the word 'will' mean last will and testament? or does it mean perseverance to continue? The brain has already decided the meaning of this word in the very first clause. So there is still fluency in the thought process, no need to analyse or question its meaning, it is already established, not like us where we do not share that same level of fluency and automated thought patterns that the ancients did. And so the hebrews would have had no problems understanding. Also the populace would have mostly listened to the word preached and these words would have been pronounced differently as is now indeed indicated.

Kind regards
chris
Chris Watts

jdhadwin
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Re: אשה = Woman or Burnt Offering? (H801 & H802)

Postby jdhadwin » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:43 am

Hey guys,

Thank you very much for your help. I am investigating an intriguing interpretation of Zechariah chapter 5 in the Bible, which seems to detail a warhead.

Without Vowel & Cantillation Marks
    1 ואשוב ואשא עיני ואראה והנה מגלה עפה׃
    If verse 1 were a traditional scroll it would not be large as verse 2 describes. Besides, it is flying.

    2 ויאמר אלי מה אתה ראה ואמר אני ראה מגלה עפה ארכה עשרים באמה ורחבה עשר באמה׃
    These are the proportions of most Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs) throughout the whole earth (as verse 6 suggests).

    3 ויאמר אלי זאת האלה היוצאת על־פני כל־הארץ כי כל־הגנב מזה כמוה נקה וכל־הנשבע מזה כמוה נקה׃
    This is also accurate of ICBMs.

    4 הוצאתיה נאם יְהוה צבאות ובאה אל־בית הגנב ואל־בית הנשבע בשמי לשקר ולנה בתוך ביתו וכלתו ואת־עציו וְאת־אבניו׃
    ICBMs are nuclear weapons, which literally do consume the timber and the stones of buildings, even the bones of those dwelling therein, leaving behind a lingering radioactivity so that even the desolate place that remains is uninhabitable.

    5 ויצא המלְאך הדבר בי ויאמר אלי שא נא עיניך ורְאה מה היוצאת הזאת׃
    The angel instructs Zechariah to inspect the contents of the מְגִלָּה shaped, missile sized "thing".

    6 ואמר מה־היא ויאמר זאת האיפה היוצאת ויאמר זאת עינם בכל־הארץ׃
    Here Zechariah seems to struggle to describe a warhead, which he sees going forth. The אֵיפָה seems to be a warhead as we read on.

    7 וְהנה ככר עפרת נשאת וזאת אשה אחת יושבת בתוך האיפה׃
    He describes what is contained in the איפה. Within, there is a talent of what he describes as lead, but could just as well be Plutonium or Uranium as far as Zechariah would have known. He also saw an אשה sitting in the midst of the איפה.

    8 ויאמר זאת הרשעה וישלך אתה אל־תוך האיפה וישלך את־אבן העפרת אל־פיה׃ ס
    The angel demonstrates the significance of these components, throwing the metal into the fire offering, which seems to describe the detonator of an ICBM, a nuclear trigger via critical mass. The angel seems to explain the detonation of such a thing represents "wickedness" (רשעה).

    9 ואשא עיני וארא וְהנה שתים נשים יוצאות ורוח בכנפיהם ולהנה כנפים ככנפי החסידה ותשאנה את־האיפה בין הארץ ובין השמים׃
    Now that their functionality is better understood, Zechariah is shown two flying אשה that lift up the איפה, which flies between earth and heaven

    10 ואמר אל־המלאך הדבר בי אנה המה מולכות את־האיפה׃
    Zechariah asks the angel where these things are going

    11 ויאמר אלי לבנות־לה בית בארץ שנער והוכן והניחה שם על־מכנתה׃ ס
    He is given a strange answer, that they are going to build a house in the land of Shinar (Babylon).

With Vowel & Cantillation Marks
    1 וָאָשׁוּב וָאֶשָּׂא עֵינַי וָֽאֶרְאֶה וְהִנֵּה מְגִלָּה עָפָֽה׃
    2 וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלַי מָה אַתָּה רֹאֶה וָאֹמַר אֲנִי רֹאֶה מְגִלָּה עָפָה אָרְכָּהּ עֶשְׂרִים בָּֽאַמָּה וְרָחְבָּהּ עֶשֶׂר בָּאַמָּֽה׃
    3 וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלַי זֹאת הָֽאָלָה הַיֹּוצֵאת עַל־פְּנֵי כָל־הָאָרֶץ כִּי כָל־הַגֹּנֵב מִזֶּה כָּמֹוהָ נִקָּה וְכָל־הַנִּשְׁבָּע מִזֶּה כָּמֹוהָ נִקָּֽה׃
    4 הֹוצֵאתִיהָ נְאֻם יְהוָה צְבָאֹות וּבָאָה אֶל־בֵּית הַגַּנָּב וְאֶל־בֵּית הַנִּשְׁבָּע בִּשְׁמִי לַשָּׁקֶר וְלָנֶה בְּתֹוךְ בֵּיתֹו וְכִלַּתּוּ וְאֶת־עֵצָיו וְאֶת־אֲבָנָֽיו׃
    5 וַיֵּצֵא הַמַּלְאָךְ הַדֹּבֵר בִּי וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלַי שָׂא נָא עֵינֶיךָ וּרְאֵה מָה הַיֹּוצֵאת הַזֹּֽאת׃
    6 וָאֹמַר מַה־הִיא וַיֹּאמֶר זֹאת הָֽאֵיפָה הַיֹּוצֵאת וַיֹּאמֶר זֹאת עֵינָם בְּכָל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃
    7 וְהִנֵּה כִּכַּר עֹפֶרֶת נִשֵּׂאת וְזֹאת אִשָּׁה אַחַת יֹושֶׁבֶת בְּתֹוךְ הָאֵיפָֽה׃
    8 וַיֹּאמֶר זֹאת הָרִשְׁעָה וַיַּשְׁלֵךְ אֹתָהּ אֶל־תֹּוךְ הָֽאֵיפָה וַיַּשְׁלֵךְ אֶת־אֶבֶן הָעֹפֶרֶת אֶל־פִּֽיהָ׃ ס
    9 וָאֶשָּׂא עֵינַי וָאֵרֶא וְהִנֵּה שְׁתַּיִם נָשִׁים יֹֽוצְאֹות וְרוּחַ בְּכַנְפֵיהֶם וְלָהֵנָּה כְנָפַיִם כְּכַנְפֵי הַחֲסִידָה וַתִּשֶּׂאנָה אֶת־הָאֵיפָה בֵּין הָאָרֶץ וּבֵין הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃
    10 וָאֹמַר אֶל־הַמַּלְאָךְ הַדֹּבֵר בִּי אָנָה הֵמָּה מֹֽולִכֹות אֶת־הָאֵיפָֽה׃
    11 וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלַי לִבְנֹֽות־לָה בַיִת בְּאֶרֶץ שִׁנְעָר וְהוּכַן וְהֻנִּיחָה שָּׁם עַל־מְכֻנָתָֽהּ׃ ס


So now you know why I've asked. I'm investigating this interpretation which I heard last year and was highly intrigued by. I'm interested to hear what you all may think.

Thank you,
~John Hadwin

kwrandolph
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Re: אשה = Woman or Burnt Offering? (H801 & H802)

Postby kwrandolph » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:50 am

jdhadwin wrote:Hey guys,

Thank you very much for your help. I am investigating an intriguing interpretation of Zechariah chapter 5 in the Bible, which seems to detail a warhead.


You have to be very careful when trying to read modern things into ancient prophecies.

I’m willing to look at the ideas that people present, to see if they have any merit. So far I reject almost all of them upon careful consideration.

This whole book is one apocalyptic vision after another. As such, the images can very well be symbolic rather than trying to describe an actual object. Now to what the symbolism refers may not be readily apparent, Zechariah certainly didn’t understand them.

jdhadwin wrote:Without Vowel & Cantillation Marks
1 ואשוב ואשא עיני ואראה והנה מגלה עפה׃
If verse 1 were a traditional scroll it would not be large as verse 2 describes. Besides, it is flying.

2 ויאמר אלי מה אתה ראה ואמר אני ראה מגלה עפה ארכה עשרים באמה ורחבה עשר באמה׃
These are the proportions of most Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs) throughout the whole earth (as verse 6 suggests).


I looked up the dimensions of ICBMs and the measurements given for the scroll are about 50% too wide and only about 33% or less the length. The smaller submarine launched missiles are still twice as long but only about half the width. Therefore he isn’t describing an ICBM.

“This is the curse”, that the scroll is so big symbolizing the extent and details of the curse.

jdhadwin wrote:3 ויאמר אלי זאת האלה היוצאת על־פני כל־הארץ כי כל־הגנב מזה כמוה נקה וכל־הנשבע מזה כמוה נקה׃
This is also accurate of ICBMs.

4 הוצאתיה נאם יְהוה צבאות ובאה אל־בית הגנב ואל־בית הנשבע בשמי לשקר ולנה בתוך ביתו וכלתו ואת־עציו וְאת־אבניו׃
ICBMs are nuclear weapons, which literally do consume the timber and the stones of buildings, even the bones of those dwelling therein, leaving behind a lingering radioactivity so that even the desolate place that remains is uninhabitable.


Any number of things can do utter destruction, not necessarily a nuke. A good example is the destruction in recent years by Islam of ancient artifacts.

Verses 5:5–11 looks like another vision.

jdhadwin wrote:So now you know why I've asked. I'm investigating this interpretation which I heard last year and was highly intrigued by. I'm interested to hear what you all may think.

Thank you,


Well, I considered it, even to the point of looking up information on ICBMs. But in the end found that I have to reject that interpretation.

Karl W. Randolph.

jdhadwin
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Re: אשה = Woman or Burnt Offering? (H801 & H802)

Postby jdhadwin » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:16 am

kwrandolph wrote:I looked up the dimensions of ICBMs and the measurements given for the scroll are about 50% too wide and only about 33% or less the length. The smaller submarine launched missiles are still twice as long but only about half the width. Therefore he isn’t describing an ICBM.


Thank you Mr. Randolph!

Those dimensions are certainly important. What if רחב were circumference?

C/π = d


10cubits/π = 3.18cubits wide (diameter)

ויאמר אלי מה אתה ראה ואמר אני ראה מגלה עפה ארכה עשרים באמה ורחבה עשר באמה׃


Zechariah (רחב figured as Circumference)
20 cubits tall by 3.18 cubits wide. Ratio 6:1

Zechariah (רחב figured as Diameter)
20 cubits tall by 10 cubits wide. Ratio 2:1

Minuteman ICBM
59 feet tall by 5 feet wide. Ratio 12:1

Yes sir, Mr. Randolph, I think you are correct! Current ICBM weapons do not fit that description. Thank you for being diligent! Let me know if the the Lord reveals anything further to you about this scripture.

I will post anything else I find here.

God bless you,
~John Hadwin

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SteveMiller
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Re: אשה = Woman or Burnt Offering? (H801 & H802)

Postby SteveMiller » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:49 pm

John,
If you are interested, here is my interpretation of the 3 visions in Zechariah 5-6.
http://www.voiceinwilderness.info/zechariah_5_6.htm
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)


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