Hosea 6:11

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Galena
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Hosea 6:11

Postby Galena » Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:03 am

Thought it wise to make this a separate topic, it occurred to me as I was reading verse 11 that without the pointing גם יהודה שת קציר לך בשובי שבות עמי could quite easily be translated as:
"Also The noise of Judah! it is (shall be) a harvest to you, when I turn the captivity of my people". Or, "also tumultuous Judah, it will be a harvest to you when I turn the captivity of my people"

My reasoning/questioning/difficulty arises from three aspects to this chapter:

1. The first 3 verses clearly point to redemption, and funnily it ends with redemption despite the in-between condemnations. This ending is really totally out of place as it stands, it lacks continuity from what has gone before. But as a prophetic utterance, alluding to the feast of tabernacles (the final in-gathering of exiles of Israel, and/or, the end of the world and final in-gathering of the righteous including the sons of Adam grafted in to the stock of Israel), the sentence now appears to have a logical continuity?

2. The idea of the 'noise' being not negative but positive, in that this is in proximity to the word for 'harvest' a possible allusion to the feast of tabernacles, which is the only feast that has not been fulfilled yet (passover and feast of weeks having been fulfilled prophetically). That also the word שת could be a construct from שתה To make a noise?

3. If the idea of harvest is negative, then this makes no sense when written in proximity within that same clause referring to the return of exiles?

4. Prophetically Ephraim never returns from exile, (though in Ezekiel this is turned around I know and there is a different prophetic utterance here), but Judah, representing the Jewish nation of the Jews do indeed return, and not just after Babylon either, hence this verse leaves out Ephraim for the time being, and specific mention is made only of Judah. So now another allusion to the in-gathering associated with the feast of tabernacles? This קציר

Regards
Chris Watts

kwrandolph
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Re: Hosea 6:11

Postby kwrandolph » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:35 am

Galena wrote:Thought it wise to make this a separate topic, it occurred to me as I was reading verse 11 that without the pointing גם יהודה שת קציר לך בשובי שבות עמי could quite easily be translated as:
"Also The noise of Judah! it is (shall be) a harvest to you, when I turn the captivity of my people". Or, "also tumultuous Judah, it will be a harvest to you when I turn the captivity of my people"


Chris, where do you get the idea of noise?

The verb שת (usually listed in a dictionary as שית with a medial yod) with a meaning “to put, this verb has a wide circle of meaning including to moving to or placing into a particular position, bringing into a particular state or condition and causing”.

My understanding is that there are still people who trace their ancestry back to Ephraim, still living in the Near East in places to where they were exiled. And they are being welcomed into the modern state of Israel. That’s just what I was told.

Karl W. Randolph.

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Galena
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Re: Hosea 6:11

Postby Galena » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:06 pm

Hi Karl, no quibbles over Ephraim, I agree with what you say, especially since Ephraim is synonymous with the whole of the northern 10 tribes, especially in Ezekiel as I said. But as far as שת is concerned, I know that this is taken from the root שית from the vowel pointing in scripture, but as I hope I made clear, it could also be in the construct form in which case it is a genitive right? From the root שתה, which means 'tumultuous noise'.
regards
Chris Watts

kwrandolph
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Re: Hosea 6:11

Postby kwrandolph » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:33 am

Galena wrote:… But as far as שת is concerned, I know that this is taken from the root שית from the vowel pointing in scripture, but as I hope I made clear, it could also be in the construct form in which case it is a genitive right? From the root שתה, which means 'tumultuous noise'.
regards


Chris:

There is no root שתה extent in Tanakh that means “tumultuous noise”. There is a root שתה extent in Tanakh that means “to drink” also used for drinking to get drunk. In the unpointed text שת could come from either שתה or שית, the context indicating which one to use.

As for the grammar, again the context seems to indicate that it is a Qal Qatal 3rd person singular.

Yours, Karl W. Randolph.

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Galena
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Re: Hosea 6:11

Postby Galena » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:11 am

Yep, completely messed this one up. Though having said that there is an interesting connection between the children of Sheth in Numbers 24:17 and the use of the word for noise in Jeremiah 48:45 which is taken from Numbers 24:17. Davidson listing root shin-aleph-heh for this as a possible construct. Yes I know you've gone off Davidson.
kind regards
Chris Watts

kwrandolph
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Re: Hosea 6:11

Postby kwrandolph » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:27 pm

Galena wrote:Though having said that there is an interesting connection between the children of Sheth in Numbers 24:17 and the use of the word for noise in Jeremiah 48:45 which is taken from Numbers 24:17.


Numbers 24 and Jeremiah 48 were two different prophecies, not referring to the same time, nor even the same peoples, other than Moab is in both prophecies.

Numbers 24 the “sons of seth” were a people who apparently worshipped an ancestor named Seth. The Egyptians called them the Hyksos who introduced the god Seth to Egypt. Israel called them the Amalekites. Saul defeated them, David finished them off. David also enslaved Moab. That was the fulfillment of Numbers 24.

Jeremiah 48 had a different people destroying Moab and taking its people into captivity. I don’t know who were the ”sons of storming”.

Galena wrote:Davidson listing root shin-aleph-heh for this as a possible construct. Yes I know you've gone off Davidson.
kind regards


Davidson is correct this time. In fact, most of the times he is correct. It’s just some of the times that he is wrong, and those are what I mentioned about which to be careful. My listing has as follows:

‎שאה to storm as in taking over, capturing a city in battle 2K 19:25, Is 6:11, 37:26, like the roar of waves Is 17:12–3 ⇒ (hit.) to have a storm of emotions Gn 28:21 → שאוה, שואה storm, שאון storming, roaring (of waves) Is 17:12–3, Ps 65:8 (7) ⇒ loud rejoicing Is 24:8 ⇒ roaring, the sound of storming Is 25:5, 66:6 ⇒ the underworld is a place of storming Is 5:14 Ps 40:3 (2) ⇒ storming as of an army invasion Jr 25:31, Am 2:2 ⇒ group of people involved in riotous, loud action, e.g. army Is 13:4, Jr 51:55, Ps 74:23, שאיה destruction caused by storming Is 24:12 αλ, שאת storming Pr 3:25, La 3:47, תשאות storms, both weather Jb 36:29, 39:7 and people’s actions Is 22:2, Zc 4:7

Karl W. Randolph.


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