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Transliterating "mosheh"

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:25 pm
by zadok
I haven't learnt to type hebrew yet, so heres a screenshot. I am doing Allen Ross's biblical hebrew, page 41. I found an answer key website which inserts an "o" in the transliterated version, where does this o come from, or perhaps is the answer key wrong?

(Answer key page: https://biblicallanguages.files.wordpre ... ified3.pdf)

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Re: Transliterating "mosheh"

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:49 am
by Jemoh66
Read footnote number 4. on p. 36.

Re: Transliterating "mosheh"

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:51 am
by S_Walch
Well the full/plene form of Moses name in Hebrew is מושה (Mosheh), as evidenced by numerous Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts. The Waw (which respresents either an 'o' or 'u' vowel) appears to have dropped out from the spelling of the name (aka the defective form), to which the Masoretes added the vowel points to give it the same pronunciation as seen in the plene form - מֹשֶׁ֑ה.

In your above written out text, you're missing the Cholem from the top of the Mem - מ compared to מֹ

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Gramma ... owels.html

However, the transliteration of the Hebrew מושה/משה into Greek as (mostly) Μωυσης/Mouses would actually indicate the the Masoretes vowel-pointed this with an older pronunciation compared to the earlier pronunciation which had the Waw as a 'u', and not an 'o', giving us Musheh.

Re: Transliterating "mosheh"

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:52 am
by zadok
Jemoh66 wrote:Read footnote number 4. on p. 36.


That footnote clarifies why the exercise might use the word like this.

Thanks also to S_Walch for the extra details.

Re: Transliterating "mosheh"

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:12 pm
by nili95
S_Walch wrote:Well the full/plene form of Moses name in Hebrew is מושה (Mosheh), as evidenced by numerous Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that Mosheh was ever written with a kholam malei. Could you point me to a couple of examples?

Thanks.

Re: Transliterating "mosheh"

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:28 am
by S_Walch
nili95 wrote:
S_Walch wrote:Well the full/plene form of Moses name in Hebrew is מושה (Mosheh), as evidenced by numerous Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that Mosheh was ever written with a kholam malei. Could you point me to a couple of examples?

Thanks.

Sure thing, erm, nili (see Kirk's message about using first/last names in posts :) )

You'll find transcriptions of most of the DSS manuscripts at the following link: https://archive.org/details/TheBiblicalQumranScrolls

Look to the following selection of manuscripts in there for evidence of Moses/מושה:
2QExoda, 2QExodb, 4QExodb, 4QNumb, 4QDeutj.

Feel free to try and find images of the above manuscripts at the following link; may take a while though :) - http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive

Interestingly, the manuscripts listed above are all paleographically dated to around the 50 BCE - 50 CE mark.

Re: Transliterating "mosheh"

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:20 pm
by nili95
S_Walch wrote:
nili95 wrote:
S_Walch wrote:Well the full/plene form of Moses name in Hebrew is מושה (Mosheh), as evidenced by numerous Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that Mosheh was ever written with a kholam malei. Could you point me to a couple of examples?

Thanks.

Sure thing, erm, nili (see Kirk's message about using first/last names in posts :) )

You'll find transcriptions of most of the DSS manuscripts at the following link: https://archive.org/details/TheBiblicalQumranScrolls

Look to the following selection of manuscripts in there for evidence of Moses/מושה:
2QExoda, 2QExodb, 4QExodb, 4QNumb, 4QDeutj.

Feel free to try and find images of the above manuscripts at the following link; may take a while though :) - http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive

Interestingly, the manuscripts listed above are all paleographically dated to around the 50 BCE - 50 CE mark.

Thank you.

I seem to recall a midrash asserting that Mosheh is 'always' spelled defectively to indicate that he was not without defects. Perhaps I'm remembering it incorrectly. Or, perhaps the author was unaware of the existence of the alternate spelling. Emanuel Tov speaks of a 'pluriformity' of DSS texts including 'proto-Masoretic'. I wonder whether the manuscripts mentioned would be deemed to fall outside of that category.

Re: Transliterating "mosheh"

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:20 pm
by S_Walch
nili95 wrote:Thank you.

I seem to recall a midrash asserting that Mosheh is 'always' spelled defectively to indicate that he was not without defects. Perhaps I'm remembering it incorrectly. Or, perhaps the author was unaware of the existence of the alternate spelling. Emanuel Tov speaks of a 'pluriformity' of DSS texts including 'proto-Masoretic'. I wonder whether the manuscripts mentioned would be deemed to fall outside of that category.

A comparison I did of 2QExoda against the Masoretic Hebrew would definitely class it as a "proto-Masoretic" text.

There are a few differences, but most of these (91%) are the Cholem Male included in words, plus more plene forms of words compared to the defective. Only four (1:12, 14; 11:3, 4) of the extant 39 verses (1:11-14; 7:1-4; 9:27-29; 11:3-7; 12:32-41; 21:18-20; 26:11 13; 30:21, 23-25; 32:32-34) contained extra words not seen in the Masoretic - however the added words to 1:12 are also evidenced in the LXX version, and the additions to 11:3 and 4 just serve to make things more explicit ("in the midst of" in 11:3 compared to "in", and "said to Pharaoh" in 11:4 compared to "said"). No verses had any words omitted.