Re: בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים
Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:14 pm
kwrandolph wrote:SteveMiller wrote:So did God create light in v1 or v3?
Before verse 3 there was no light. The earth was absolutely still, not moving. We’re talking about 0° K. In verse 3 God didn’t “create” light, i.e. as a new creation, rather he had light come into being. Or in physics terms, God warmed up the earth and started the atoms jiggling, and as the atoms jiggled, light came forth.
v2 says "waters", not "ice". So it couldn't be 0 degrees Kelvin.
v2 says "darkness was on the face of the deep". But if light did not exist yet, darkness was everywhere. Not just on the surface of the earth which was covered with water. If I say, My house was dark, that implies that other houses were not dark.
In the six days in Gen 1, God did nothing in the night. The repeated formula is: There was morning, and then God worked, and then there was evening, and then there was the morning of the next day. Would God create the heavens and the earth in the dark?
kwrandolph wrote:What do you mean by “science”?
The science I was taught in state universities and in secular science textbooks unanimously limits science to the study of observable phenomena where the observations are repeatable, from which are derived hypotheses and theories and against which theories and hypotheses are tested. That definition limits science to the study of present, physical processes. The past is no longer observable, therefore cannot be studied by science. Science cannot study ideas like justice, aesthetics, love, mercy, etc. because these and similar concepts are not observable. Any theory that depends on unobservable “facts” by definition cannot be a scientific theory. That definition limits science able to discuss only a small window of total knowledge.
According to that definition, no dating method is scientific, because they are all based on unobservable presuppositions. Fossils are dug out of the ground, but we cannot observe how and when they were formed. People can guess, based on their religious choices and presuppositions, but those guesses by definition are not science.
I agree with your definition of science. It is a verifiable fact that dinosaurs covered the earth at one time. And all the many species of dinosaurs, from the size of a chicken to many times bigger than elephants, cannot be found. I think dinosaur remains are evidence of a previous creation on this earth between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. If dinosaurs were part of this creation, then God would have saved 2 of each kind on the ark, and there would still be some of most of the kinds of dinosaurs around today.
I do not know of any verifiable evidence of humans existing at the same time as dinos.
Either dinosaurs were part of this creation or they were part of a previous creation on this earth.
If they were part of this creation then God saved 2 of each kind on the ark and some of most of the kinds should still be around today.
If they were part of a previous creation it would have to be in between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.
kwrandolph wrote:Fresh dinosaur tracks in wet mud have been recorded in the area around the Licouri Swamp in Africa, for centuries. Natives tell they prefer to stay in water, and which fruits they like to eat. Job 40:21–23. That’s just one example, there are others in other areas of the earth.
I can't find anything about Licouri swamp or fresh dino tracks on the web.
The behemoth in Job 40:15-24 is not a dinosaur.
It is a mammal because it has a naval v16
I think it is one of the Sirenia species: manatee, dugong or listed-as-extinct sea cow.
kwrandolph wrote:SteveMiller wrote:Another reason for a time gap is that today we can see stars which are 13 billion light years away turn into super novas and burn up. We are seeing an event that happened 13 billion years ago.
How do the “scientists” know the distances and times? The times are no longer observable, and the distances merely guesses based on the guessed times.
The speed of light is verifiable. It can be consistently measured.
The distance to stars is verifiable. Triangulation from the earth and from satellites has been used to measure the distance to the sun and 1000's of stars.
For stars outside our galaxy, the distance calculation is based on the type of star and brightness diminishing according to distance squared. A description is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_distance_ladder
Young earth creationist sites like answersingenesis agree with the science that the stars in distant galaxies are really that far away.
If you believe that God made all the stars on the 4th day, then you would have to believe that all the supernovas that we can see are < 6,000 light years away.
I think when God made the stars on the 4th day, He made the stars in our galaxy, which are the only stars visible to the naked eye.
I think God created the other stars when he created the heavens in v1, which was a long time before day one in Gen 1:3.
kwrandolph wrote:And there’s no linguistic indication of a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 that I know of.
Do you have a different definition for “science”?
Karl W. Randolph.
I have the same definition of science as you.
Implications of a gap between Gen 1:1 and 2 in the text:
1. Day one began in verse 3. Then there is no Biblical timeline back to verses 1 and 2.
2. Day one is called yom echad instead of yom harishon, while the subsequent 6 days use the ordinal numbers, 2nd, 3rd, etc. This implies that day one was not the first day ever.
3. v2 says the earth became tohu and bohu. The only other times tohu and bohu are used together is to describe a destruction by the judgment of God.