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Psalm 44:22 - "for your sake we are killed" or just "we are killed"?

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:20 am
by Ruminator
Is "for your sake we are killed" an accurate translation of Psalm 44:22a? Or does it simply say "for we are killed"?:

44:22 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
כִּֽי־עָ֭לֶיךָ הֹרַ֣גְנוּ כָל־הַיֹּ֑ום נֶ֝חְשַׁ֗בְנוּ כְּצֹ֣אן טִבְחָֽה׃


All of the translations I see have the former.

http://biblehub.com/psalms/44-22.htm

This is an interlinear:

http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/44-22.htm

Re: Psalm 44:22 - "for your sake we are killed" or just "we are killed"?

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:45 pm
by S_Walch
Yes, that is more or less an accurate translation.

The specific phrase in question is : כִּֽי־עָ֭לֶיךָ הֹרַ֣גְנוּ

The first section - כִּֽי־עָ֭לֶיךָ - literally says "Yet, upon you", with the preposition עָ֭לֶ/upon giving us 'on account of/because of/for the sake of'. It's a preposition with a whole host of meanings (as with most prepositions).

If the text said כִּֽי הֹרַ֣גְנוּ then yes, that would say 'For we are killed' - the עָ֭לֶיךָ gives the 'your sake' bit.

Re: Psalm 44:22 - "for your sake we are killed" or just "we are killed"?

Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:48 pm
by Jason Hare
Ruminator wrote:This is an interlinear:

http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/44-22.htm


The problem is in your "interlinear." First off, this isn't an interlinear. Second, the "analysis" it provides is simply referencing the preposition על "on, about, concerning" and not its specific form עליך "on, about, concerning YOU." Therein lies your problem.

Is there any chance you might be interested in using your real name? Does B-Hebrew not still abide by this protocol?

BibleHub is a cool tool, but it is not a Hebrew grammar.

Re: Psalm 44:22 - "for your sake we are killed" or just "we are killed"?

Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:48 pm
by Ruminator
I thought that might be the case. Can we distinguish between the nuance of "we are being murdered *because* we are your people" and "we are being killed to *please/glorify* you"? In other words, is the Psalmist complaining about the enemies or is he saying that they are presenting their bodies as "sacrifices" to G-d? Or must that be determined entirely by context? In translation, "killed over you" sounds like the former while "killed for your sake" sounds more like the latter.

Re: Psalm 44:22 - "for your sake we are killed" or just "we are killed"?

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:21 am
by Kirk Lowery
Yes, the forum still follows this protocol. William is new to the forum (Welcome!), and I've been traveling for the holidays and just got back. Thanks for the reminder, Jason.

Kirk