cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
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cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
Hi everyone!
Ive just withdrawn for a while from Hebrew self study by trying to have a basics grasp other classical languages
and now I think the materials in the introductory textbook makes more sense to me (after 3 or 4 failed attempts before I taught myself latin and greek)
and now I have an impression that actually Hebrew has a pattern that I failed to grasp before, but in doing so I often ignored the vowel points, but still I can recognized the basics patterns..
my question is, if I keep ignoring the vowel points, while trying to assimilate the consonant (which is itself not an easy task to read a deaf sentence, id est without a vowel), will it do harm for my understanding of the language in the long run?
how important is the actual vowel point, which is for me is changing in a way that I dont really aware (my mistake by purpose) while translating the exercise in the intro textbook. will it be a hinder when I pick up the real OT text?
thank you
Ive just withdrawn for a while from Hebrew self study by trying to have a basics grasp other classical languages
and now I think the materials in the introductory textbook makes more sense to me (after 3 or 4 failed attempts before I taught myself latin and greek)
and now I have an impression that actually Hebrew has a pattern that I failed to grasp before, but in doing so I often ignored the vowel points, but still I can recognized the basics patterns..
my question is, if I keep ignoring the vowel points, while trying to assimilate the consonant (which is itself not an easy task to read a deaf sentence, id est without a vowel), will it do harm for my understanding of the language in the long run?
how important is the actual vowel point, which is for me is changing in a way that I dont really aware (my mistake by purpose) while translating the exercise in the intro textbook. will it be a hinder when I pick up the real OT text?
thank you
Sophronios Budiman
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
I started off reading Hebrew with vowel points, but due to my time reading the Dead Sea Scrolls (which don't have them), I read a Hebrew text of my own making that doesn't contain the vowel points.
So I wouldn't say they were massively important once you can read Hebrew, or even before you can fluently. Even in Israel today, you'll find many publications that don't use the vowel points.
So I wouldn't say they were massively important once you can read Hebrew, or even before you can fluently. Even in Israel today, you'll find many publications that don't use the vowel points.
Ste Walch
- SteveMiller
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
I read it with the vowels because it makes it easy for me to pronounce. The vowels are not part of the inspired text.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
Back when I studied “Biblical Hebrew” (which actually was medieval Hebrew) the vowel points were considered almost canon, that somehow the Masoretes had preserved not only the written consonants, but that the pronunciations preserved in the vower points somehow were also Biblical.sophronios budiman wrote:my question is, if I keep ignoring the vowel points, while trying to assimilate the consonant (which is itself not an easy task to read a deaf sentence, id est without a vowel), will it do harm for my understanding of the language in the long run?
how important is the actual vowel point, which is for me is changing in a way that I dont really aware (my mistake by purpose) while translating the exercise in the intro textbook. will it be a hinder when I pick up the real OT text?
thank you
I now read Tanakh without points. And have read Tanakh through some times without points.
But the more I read Bible, the more I realize that some of the points indicate incorrect meanings. So in that regard, rigidly following the points actually makes it harder to read and understand Tanakh. In the long run, it will help you read and understand Tanakh if you can do so without points.
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
Many? The vast majority of Israelis couldn't tell you if a vowel represents a or e if you pointed out to them. They learned the names of the vowels in school and basically how to associate sounds with them, but they forgot them over time. Vowels are just bothersome to Israelis (except those who have extensive religious upbringing).S_Walch wrote:I started off reading Hebrew with vowel points, but due to my time reading the Dead Sea Scrolls (which don't have them), I read a Hebrew text of my own making that doesn't contain the vowel points.
So I wouldn't say they were massively important once you can read Hebrew, or even before you can fluently. Even in Israel today, you'll find many publications that don't use the vowel points.
I also read Hebrew without vowels, but I wouldn't start beginners off without them... unless they are learning modern Hebrew. (And I always suggest that people start with biblical Hebrew and learn the Masoretic system well before starting modern, because I'm biased.) I've got a student that I'm working with now who has no experience with biblical Hebrew, and we started off without vowels from the beginning - and he's already comfortable with reading vowelless Hebrew after only two months.
My opinion? Biblical Hebrew will not get you a very big vocabulary base, since the words will not stay in your mind as well as if you actually use them in daily conversation. Communicative Hebrew (whether modern or a mixed type [like Buth's]) will cause the vocabulary to increase exponentially. However, studying the biblical form will better cement the grammar and accidence.
Experience will help you get away from reading with vowels. I don't think we should keep beginning biblical Hebrew students away from the vowel system. It is a necessary crutch for starting out in the language.
My 2¢.
P.S. It's so nice to run into you in a place other than that which shall not be named. Cheers!
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Jason Hare
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
I've always been interested in how you read Hebrew words. Do you think you could produce a short reading to exemplify how you read Hebrew? I mean, I don't know if you have your own idiosyncratic way of pronouncing everything that is very distinct from how we read with the Masoretic vowels. I'd totally love to hear how you read Genesis 1 aloud, for example.kwrandolph wrote:Back when I studied “Biblical Hebrew” (which actually was medieval Hebrew) the vowel points were considered almost canon, that somehow the Masoretes had preserved not only the written consonants, but that the pronunciations preserved in the vower points somehow were also Biblical.
I now read Tanakh without points. And have read Tanakh through some times without points.
But the more I read Bible, the more I realize that some of the points indicate incorrect meanings. So in that regard, rigidly following the points actually makes it harder to read and understand Tanakh. In the long run, it will help you read and understand Tanakh if you can do so without points.
Karl W. Randolph.
Might you make a short recording with your telephone and upload it to share just to demonstrate how Hebrew sounds to you?
Regards,
Jason
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
Oh, so "all" would be the better word then?Jason Hare wrote:Many? The vast majority of Israelis couldn't tell you if a vowel represents a or e if you pointed out to them. They learned the names of the vowels in school and basically how to associate sounds with them, but they forgot them over time. Vowels are just bothersome to Israelis (except those who have extensive religious upbringing).
Any particular reason why you started them with vowelless Hebrew, or it mainly because that outside of the Masoretic tradition, you're not going to come across the vowel points?I've got a student that I'm working with now who has no experience with biblical Hebrew, and we started off without vowels from the beginning - and he's already comfortable with reading vowelless Hebrew after only two months.
I personally wish I too had started off with just vowelless Hebrew. Like Karl, I do believe the Masoretic vowel points are very distracting, and not particularly germane to understanding the text.
I do like to linger more here and B-Greek than there, so yes, come and discuss things here instead!P.S. It's so nice to run into you in a place other than that which shall not be named. Cheers!
Ste Walch
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
Now let's get rid of the spaces. And make it right to left. Ancient Hebrew is tough.
?lwvthtwdryllrnc
?lwvthtwdryllrnc
- SteveMiller
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
Ancient Hebrew has spaces between the words.
DSS even has extra space between the verses.
DSS even has extra space between the verses.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?
"DSS even has extra space between the verses."
-- Agreed. The Dead Sea Scrolls have spaces.
https://www.baslibrary.org/bible-review/8/3/19
A few of the dead sea scrolls have Paleo-Hebrew. I relooked at that, those have breaks/spaces as well.
*****
I don't see spaces/breaks on the Gezer Calendar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezer_calendar
-- Agreed. The Dead Sea Scrolls have spaces.
https://www.baslibrary.org/bible-review/8/3/19
*****"Ancient Greek was commonly written like that. Stone monuments from Athens and other Greek cities, Greek papyri found in Egypt, classical and biblical manuscripts in Greek all show line after line of letters in unbroken sequences.
Some scholars—and I regret to say Professor Minkoff is among them—have assumed that Hebrew scribes also wrote in scriptio continua. Yet only a superficial look at ancient Hebrew documents is sufficient prove that this is untrue."
A few of the dead sea scrolls have Paleo-Hebrew. I relooked at that, those have breaks/spaces as well.
*****
I don't see spaces/breaks on the Gezer Calendar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezer_calendar