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cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:10 am
by sophronios budiman
Hi everyone!
Ive just withdrawn for a while from Hebrew self study by trying to have a basics grasp other classical languages
and now I think the materials in the introductory textbook makes more sense to me (after 3 or 4 failed attempts before I taught myself latin and greek)
and now I have an impression that actually Hebrew has a pattern that I failed to grasp before, but in doing so I often ignored the vowel points, but still I can recognized the basics patterns..
my question is, if I keep ignoring the vowel points, while trying to assimilate the consonant (which is itself not an easy task to read a deaf sentence, id est without a vowel), will it do harm for my understanding of the language in the long run?
how important is the actual vowel point, which is for me is changing in a way that I dont really aware (my mistake by purpose) while translating the exercise in the intro textbook. will it be a hinder when I pick up the real OT text?

thank you

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:11 am
by S_Walch
I started off reading Hebrew with vowel points, but due to my time reading the Dead Sea Scrolls (which don't have them), I read a Hebrew text of my own making that doesn't contain the vowel points.

So I wouldn't say they were massively important once you can read Hebrew, or even before you can fluently. Even in Israel today, you'll find many publications that don't use the vowel points.

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:42 pm
by SteveMiller
I read it with the vowels because it makes it easy for me to pronounce. The vowels are not part of the inspired text.

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:07 pm
by kwrandolph
sophronios budiman wrote:my question is, if I keep ignoring the vowel points, while trying to assimilate the consonant (which is itself not an easy task to read a deaf sentence, id est without a vowel), will it do harm for my understanding of the language in the long run?
how important is the actual vowel point, which is for me is changing in a way that I dont really aware (my mistake by purpose) while translating the exercise in the intro textbook. will it be a hinder when I pick up the real OT text?

thank you


Back when I studied “Biblical Hebrew” (which actually was medieval Hebrew) the vowel points were considered almost canon, that somehow the Masoretes had preserved not only the written consonants, but that the pronunciations preserved in the vower points somehow were also Biblical.

I now read Tanakh without points. And have read Tanakh through some times without points.

But the more I read Bible, the more I realize that some of the points indicate incorrect meanings. So in that regard, rigidly following the points actually makes it harder to read and understand Tanakh. In the long run, it will help you read and understand Tanakh if you can do so without points.

Karl W. Randolph.

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:48 pm
by Jason Hare
S_Walch wrote:I started off reading Hebrew with vowel points, but due to my time reading the Dead Sea Scrolls (which don't have them), I read a Hebrew text of my own making that doesn't contain the vowel points.

So I wouldn't say they were massively important once you can read Hebrew, or even before you can fluently. Even in Israel today, you'll find many publications that don't use the vowel points.

Many? The vast majority of Israelis couldn't tell you if a vowel represents a or e if you pointed out to them. They learned the names of the vowels in school and basically how to associate sounds with them, but they forgot them over time. Vowels are just bothersome to Israelis (except those who have extensive religious upbringing).

I also read Hebrew without vowels, but I wouldn't start beginners off without them... unless they are learning modern Hebrew. (And I always suggest that people start with biblical Hebrew and learn the Masoretic system well before starting modern, because I'm biased.) I've got a student that I'm working with now who has no experience with biblical Hebrew, and we started off without vowels from the beginning - and he's already comfortable with reading vowelless Hebrew after only two months.

My opinion? Biblical Hebrew will not get you a very big vocabulary base, since the words will not stay in your mind as well as if you actually use them in daily conversation. Communicative Hebrew (whether modern or a mixed type [like Buth's]) will cause the vocabulary to increase exponentially. However, studying the biblical form will better cement the grammar and accidence.

Experience will help you get away from reading with vowels. I don't think we should keep beginning biblical Hebrew students away from the vowel system. It is a necessary crutch for starting out in the language.

My 2¢.

P.S. It's so nice to run into you in a place other than that which shall not be named. Cheers!

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:51 pm
by Jason Hare
kwrandolph wrote:Back when I studied “Biblical Hebrew” (which actually was medieval Hebrew) the vowel points were considered almost canon, that somehow the Masoretes had preserved not only the written consonants, but that the pronunciations preserved in the vower points somehow were also Biblical.

I now read Tanakh without points. And have read Tanakh through some times without points.

But the more I read Bible, the more I realize that some of the points indicate incorrect meanings. So in that regard, rigidly following the points actually makes it harder to read and understand Tanakh. In the long run, it will help you read and understand Tanakh if you can do so without points.

Karl W. Randolph.


I've always been interested in how you read Hebrew words. Do you think you could produce a short reading to exemplify how you read Hebrew? I mean, I don't know if you have your own idiosyncratic way of pronouncing everything that is very distinct from how we read with the Masoretic vowels. I'd totally love to hear how you read Genesis 1 aloud, for example.

Might you make a short recording with your telephone and upload it to share just to demonstrate how Hebrew sounds to you?

Regards,
Jason

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:52 am
by S_Walch
Jason Hare wrote:Many? The vast majority of Israelis couldn't tell you if a vowel represents a or e if you pointed out to them. They learned the names of the vowels in school and basically how to associate sounds with them, but they forgot them over time. Vowels are just bothersome to Israelis (except those who have extensive religious upbringing).

Oh, so "all" would be the better word then? :)

I've got a student that I'm working with now who has no experience with biblical Hebrew, and we started off without vowels from the beginning - and he's already comfortable with reading vowelless Hebrew after only two months.

Any particular reason why you started them with vowelless Hebrew, or it mainly because that outside of the Masoretic tradition, you're not going to come across the vowel points?

I personally wish I too had started off with just vowelless Hebrew. Like Karl, I do believe the Masoretic vowel points are very distracting, and not particularly germane to understanding the text.

P.S. It's so nice to run into you in a place other than that which shall not be named. Cheers!

I do like to linger more here and B-Greek than there, so yes, come and discuss things here instead! :D

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:48 pm
by Rich McQuillen
Now let's get rid of the spaces. :) And make it right to left. Ancient Hebrew is tough.
?lwvthtwdryllrnc

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:24 pm
by SteveMiller
Ancient Hebrew has spaces between the words.
DSS even has extra space between the verses.

Re: cn I relly red wtht a vwl?

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:20 pm
by Rich McQuillen
"DSS even has extra space between the verses."
-- Agreed. The Dead Sea Scrolls have spaces.

https://www.baslibrary.org/bible-review/8/3/19
"Ancient Greek was commonly written like that. Stone monuments from Athens and other Greek cities, Greek papyri found in Egypt, classical and biblical manuscripts in Greek all show line after line of letters in unbroken sequences.

Some scholars—and I regret to say Professor Minkoff is among them—have assumed that Hebrew scribes also wrote in scriptio continua. Yet only a superficial look at ancient Hebrew documents is sufficient prove that this is untrue."

*****
A few of the dead sea scrolls have Paleo-Hebrew. I relooked at that, those have breaks/spaces as well.
*****
I don't see spaces/breaks on the Gezer Calendar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezer_calendar
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