Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

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Ruminator
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Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby Ruminator » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:49 pm

Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2? The Lexicons show it as:

"origin"

But the only example they show is Micah 5:2.

Some translations have "whose comings forth" or "whose goings forth" but other have "origin". LXX renders it as EXODUS, or "departures".

It does appear to be etymologically linked to "spring".

But again, I'm just wondering if someone can search their helps and see if it shows up in the lit. Thanks.
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby Kirk Lowery » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:52 am

Just a note that the verse in Hebrew is Micah 5:1.

There is just one other place that this feminine noun occurs: 2 Kings 10:27. There it occurs as the qere for the ketiv ‎מַחֲרָאוֹת meaning cesspool. The lexicons suggest the ketiv is the original, with the qere, "places of going out to, i.e., outhouse, privy" as a euphemism.

So the usage in Micah is a hapax legomenon.

Personal opinion: since the first clause of the verse uses the same root יצא to come out, to go forth, the second line where מוֹצָאָה occurs, suggests a parallel in concept. So, his going out. The NETBible translation note here says "The term may refer to the ruler's origins or to his activities."

HTH,
Kirk
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Ruminator
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby Ruminator » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:37 am

Thanks, I thought that might be the case.

My own thought is that given the "military worthiness" in the context that perhaps it refers to the Messiah's "campaigns" or "sorties" or "battles" being predetermined before the foundation of the world.
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby SteveMiller » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:57 pm

HALOT says מוֹצָאָה is the feminine of מוֹצָא, which means "goings forth" in Ps 65:8(9); Hos 6:3; 2Sam 3:25; 1Ki 10:28; 2Chr 1:16; Ezek 12:4;44:5

Job 38:27 refers to sprouting, which is like an origin.

HALOT also gives the meanings of "Place of departure", "exit, way out", and "pronouncement" - that which goes out of the mouth.
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Ruminator
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby Ruminator » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:19 pm

Thanks. I do see the connection, but I believe you are confirming that, no, it is not extant as "origin", is that correct? I am inclined by context to read it "sorties" or "battles". The LXX has EXODUS, which generally refers to an "exit" but I believe is also used for going out to battle. At any rate, thanks.
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby SteveMiller » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:50 pm

William,
I agree that "origin" is not a valid meaning. 2Sam 3:25 seems to refer to military goings out.
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Steve Miller
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby SteveMiller » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:09 pm

Karl has done research on the difference in meaning between the masculine and feminine forms of a noun.
Karl,
Could you comment on what might be the meaning of מוֹצָאָה is the feminine of מוֹצָא?
Thanks
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby tian777 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:56 am

I'm not sure if this justifies a new thread, so I am asking a new question in the form of a reply. In the BHS footnotes 1b and 1c of this verse there are English and Greek letters combined in references. Could someone please explain what they mean, or suggest some reading material explaining this phenomenon.
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby talmid56 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:50 pm

I find some of BHS's footnotes rather cryptic myself. Not because of the Latin used, tho. There is a guide to the Latin abbreviations in the front matter. But I would love to have a guide explaining the apparatus format fully (preferably something free since I seldom can afford to buy books). I did see a brief explanation in the BHS Introduction of how they indicate readings from the Masora. But as I don't often concern myself with word counts, I at present have no use for that. From what I've seen, the introductions to the critical Greek New Testaments do a much better job of explaining how to read their apparatuses.

My guess, Tian (and it is only a guess), is that the English and Greek letter combinations refer to sections of the verse, or perhaps the relative positions of the words in the verse. I would also welcome more information on this myself.
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Re: Is the usage of מוֹצָאָה as "origins" extant outside of Micah 5:2?

Postby Kirk Lowery » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:26 am

To understand the BHS apparatus, the best resource I know of is:

Reinhard Wonneberger, Understanding BHS. A manual for the Users of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. 2nd revised edition. Subsidia Biblica, 8. Editrice Pontificio Istituto Biblico: Roma, 1990. This is an English translation of a German original: Leitfaden zur Biblia Hebraica. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. It can be bought on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-BH ... 876535780/), but there are other sources as well, such as Logos software.

A second resource is:

William R. Scott and Harold P. Scanlin, A Simplified Guide to BHS: Critical Apparatus, Masora, Accents, Unusual Letters & Other Markings. 4th edition. BIBAL Press: 2007. https://www.amazon.com/Simplified-Guide ... 930566689/

Finally, one should always consult with the Prolegomena and Sigla et Compendia Apparatuum of BHS. The Prologmena is in a number of languages, including German, French, English, Spanish, Latin, and some others.
Kirk E. Lowery, PhD
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