Terminology: "throaty letter" is a translation of אוֹת גְּרוֹנִית which is technically called a guttural letter, which refers to alef, heh, chet, ayin and (by similar behavior, sometimes) resh.ducky wrote:When someone pronounces a throaty letter with silent Sheva.
Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
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- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
Thanks, Jason.
So it is okay to use "throaty letters" (instead of Guttural) or does it sound weird?
So it is okay to use "throaty letters" (instead of Guttural) or does it sound weird?
David Hunter
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
ducky writes
I will not comment further on "vowels that got shorter", "old pronunciation before the mobile Sheva got into Hebrew", "stress of the word "jumped forward"", "short vowels are unstable", "the Qamats in Shalon (and every Qamats) was not pronounced like the Patah'. It was something like the English "o" in the word "hot" or "Bob"", since I have difficulties imagining how vowels "got" shorter, and how the mobile Sheva "got" into Hebrew (this last one is actually easy: "grammarians" ushered it in.)
Isaac Fried, Boston University
Sorry to say, but the arrows and the asterisk seem to me no more than scribbles. Do the arrows represent an imagined historical process? There is indeed a bEni, but as the name Benny.bEn-->bEni-->b*nI
I am not confused, only perplexed, even sad at all this. Who invented this "grammar" whereby a "derived" schwa is declared "mobile" and is designated by an asterisk? Is this wonderful science being taught in school?Don't confuse the grammar with the pronunciation.
I will not comment further on "vowels that got shorter", "old pronunciation before the mobile Sheva got into Hebrew", "stress of the word "jumped forward"", "short vowels are unstable", "the Qamats in Shalon (and every Qamats) was not pronounced like the Patah'. It was something like the English "o" in the word "hot" or "Bob"", since I have difficulties imagining how vowels "got" shorter, and how the mobile Sheva "got" into Hebrew (this last one is actually easy: "grammarians" ushered it in.)
Isaac Fried, Boston University
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- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
It sounds really weird. You could say "letters representing sounds produced in the throat," but they are referred to as "guttural letters" everywhere.ducky wrote:Thanks, Jason.
So it is okay to use "throaty letters" (instead of Guttural) or does it sound weird?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
You really don't understand what he's saying? It is clearly development.Isaac Fried wrote:ducky writesSorry to say, but the arrows and the asterisk seem to me no more than scribbles. Do the arrows represent an imagined historical process? There is indeed a bEni, but as the name Benny.bEn-->bEni-->b*nIDon't confuse the grammar with the pronunciation.
ben (original form) > *beni (theoretical: original form + personal ending) > bni (drop of -e- vowel)
בֵּן > *בֵּנִי > בְּנִי
The drop of the vowel within the word is what we call "reduction."
It's hard to know when you're just being dismissive (because you do that a lot without any justification) and when you truly don't understand the person you're interacting with.
Last edited by Jason Hare on Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
And yet, he would seek to revolutionize the world of Hebrew language teaching with his own theory that has zero support in the academic world. He thinks that dagesh has no function, that all infixes are actually personal pronouns, that there is no meaning in binyanim, etc. etc.ducky wrote:Never mind. This thing is not for you.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
Thanks, Jason for the explanation.
So I would start to use "guttural".
As for Isaac, let's let everyone understand the language as he sees it.
When the basis is so far away, there is no point to argue.
So I would start to use "guttural".
As for Isaac, let's let everyone understand the language as he sees it.
When the basis is so far away, there is no point to argue.
David Hunter
- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
Either way, it's nice to read your posts. I hope you've got a lot more that you're reading to write and discuss. You've made a quick entry into B-Hebrew, and I'm looking forward to more interactions.ducky wrote:Thanks, Jason for the explanation.
So I would start to use "guttural".
As for Isaac, let's let everyone understand the language as he sees it.
When the basis is so far away, there is no point to argue.
ברוך הבא!
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah
Jason says
The development is actually this: read -> understand -> speak.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
The "development" is clearly no more than a figment of your imagination.It is clearly development.
This is not true. Read what I have repeatedly written here about the dagesh and you will better understand the issue of the "function".He thinks that dagesh has no function
You are near the truth but not entirely. What are "all infixes"?He thinks that all infixes are actually personal pronouns.
It is not clear to me what is this "meaning in binyanim".He thinks that there is no meaning in binyanim, etc. etc.
The development is actually this: read -> understand -> speak.
Isaac Fried, Boston University