Today I have heard an ashkenazi, very experienced and punctilious public reader בעל קורא clearly read the name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
מָחֲלַת בַּת יִשְׁמָעֵאל בֶּן אַבְרָהָם אֲחוֹת נְבָיוֹת
as MAXALAT, not MAXLAT.
I would have done the same.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
-
- Posts: 787
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
So he read it according to the vowels.
What is the catch?
What is the catch?
David Hunter
-
- Posts: 1783
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
ducky writes
Judges 9:9
וַיֹּאמֶר לָהֶם הַזַּיִת הֶחֳדַלְתִּי אֶת דִּשְׁנִי אֲשֶׁר בִּי יְכַבְּדוּ אֱלֹהִים וַאֲנָשִׁים
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
There is indeed no catch, except that מָחֲלַת is written with a hataf-patah. How do you read the word הֶחֳדַלְתִּי inWhat is the catch?
Judges 9:9
וַיֹּאמֶר לָהֶם הַזַּיִת הֶחֳדַלְתִּי אֶת דִּשְׁנִי אֲשֶׁר בִּי יְכַבְּדוּ אֱלֹהִים וַאֲנָשִׁים
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
- Jason Hare
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
- Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
- Contact:
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Personally, I'd read it as heḥŏḏáltî [hechodálti].
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
-
- Posts: 787
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm
- Jason Hare
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
- Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
- Contact:
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
I'm not sure what brought up the topic of the thread. Would someone have suggested reading it otherwise?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
-
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:03 pm
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
What the pointing is showing here is that there is a slight difference between all three of these /a/ vowels. But they are indeed all three /a/’s. The qametz is long (double length), and may be an indication of tending towards an o. The chataf patach is a half length. The patach is normal length a basic short vowel due being in a closed syllable. -lat and ma- have the same length. The middle syllable, being subject to the historical rhythm preserved by the pointing, occurs before the accent that is placed on the final syllable, so that /a/ vowel in the middle syllable almost disappears into a schwa.Isaac Fried wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:58 pm Today I have heard an ashkenazi, very experienced and punctilious public reader בעל קורא clearly read the name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
מָחֲלַת בַּת יִשְׁמָעֵאל בֶּן אַבְרָהָם אֲחוֹת נְבָיוֹת
as MAXALAT, not MAXLAT.
I would have done the same.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
- Jason Hare
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
- Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
- Contact:
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Well, maybe the question was because we actually find forms like יַחְשֹׁב and יַחֲשֹׁב in the biblical text. That is, sometimes there is the "echo vowel" (the chataf), and sometimes it is simply a closed syllable without it. If the chataf is printed, you should read it; if it isn't, you shouldn't. That is, if you're a careful reader (like the בעל קורא in the OP).
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
-
- Posts: 787
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Hi Jason,
But it is not the same form.
The form of מחלת, in this case, is similar to the form of בשמת (the second name of מחלת) or צרפת and so on (which have the Sheva in the second letter).
In words like צרפת or בשמת the Sheva is mobile.
But it is not the same form.
The form of מחלת, in this case, is similar to the form of בשמת (the second name of מחלת) or צרפת and so on (which have the Sheva in the second letter).
In words like צרפת or בשמת the Sheva is mobile.
David Hunter
- Jason Hare
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
- Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
- Contact:
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
I was just thinking that maybe he thought that people don't pronounce the chataf-patach because we tend to say yachshov. I wasn't suggesting that they were the same form. I was trying to understand why he brought this up.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳