SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm
Jer 29:10 was given right after Jeconiah was taken captive, which was the beginning of the 70-year captivity (29:1-2).
So from the giving of that word until Cyrus is 69 years, not 49.
You need to remember that the dates that are in the bible not always the same as the dates according to the historians.
But still... it fits in both views.
The prophecy to Jer. about rebuilding Jerusalem should start when the temple is destroyed, right?
In Jer. 51:12 it is said that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple in the 19th years of his ruling.
The Prophecy of Jer. says that Jerusalem will start to be built after 70 years of Babylon Ruling. (29:10)
Now take these 70 years minus 19 years = 51
and that is the time that is counted according to the bible.
***
And if you'll go to the Historians...
Then the temple was destroyed in -586
The Cyrus Cylinder is in -538
=48
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm
Both Ezra 1:1 and Dan 9:25 using the word
דבר is a good point, but not strong.
Cyrus' proclamation is also a word.
Ezra 1:1 says
דְּבַר י״י which is quite different than just
דְּבַר in Dan 9:25.
The context of Dan 9:25 does not demand that the word is of God, so if it was the word of God, it should say so.
That, of course, is arguable.
Basically, I think your argument would work if the time from Jeremiah's prophecy until Cyrus was 49 years, but that does not appear to be so from the Biblical dates.
First, I can see it does match.
Second, According to the context, this whole chapter starts with the fact that Daniel reads Jer. prophecy and starts asking this question. (Daniel 9:2).
Jer. prophecy about restoring Jerusalem is the basis of this whole thing.
So in Daniel 9:2, Daniel seeks to find the meaning of the word of God that said that Jerusalem would be restored.
And after all that, Gabriel came and talk about that, And he tells him about the coming out of that word to build Jerusalem.
So if this chapter started with Daniel reading this prophecy of Jer. then it seems that this מצא דבר that Gabriel was talking about is the same דבר that Daniel sought to find in the first place.
Notice also that in Jer. 29:10 it is called דברי הטוב (my good word)
And once again I have to say that seeing this דבר linked to any word that would come in the future is not reasonable because it leaves Daniel clueless even though he was precious to God and Gabriel was sent to give him the answer.
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm
I don't know why you are so dismissive of Cyrus' proclamation but give this one serious consideration.
I dismiss any future event to be seen as this דבר.
As I said before, it turns these words to Daniel into vain words.
And also, Daniel seeks to find When will Jerusalem will be built, right?
So what is the answer that you propose?
You propose that Gabriel came and started telling him things that would start to happen when Jerusalem will be built.
But WHEN it will be built?
It's like one wants to know when does the football game starts, and the answer he gets is:
"When the referee will blow his whistle then there would be a good game with a few scores, and then after 30 minutes, it will rain, and then after 20 minutes, the captain of that team will be injured, and then..."
The question is when will the game start, and the answer is not even relevant, even though it talks about the game.
So also here,
Daniel wants to know when Jerusalem will be built, and you are telling me that Gabriel told him that in the future, when an unknown king will command that, then Jerusalem will be this and that and that and this.
It is not even relevant to Daniel's basic question.
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm
The problem here is demanding that Mashiach Nagid comes 49 years after this.
I find it hard to call Nehemiah a
מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד.
Also, I don't know of any Biblical timeline that would put him at 49 years after this word to Daniel.
I don't think it is a problem to call Nehemiah in the title משיח if he was the leader who built Jerusalem.
About the count...
I think we can get less than 49 years but more than 40 years.
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm
Why is this reading not possible?:
From the going forth of the word to bring back and to build Jerusalem until Messiah, Prince is 7 weeks + 62 weeks.
She shall return and be built, the street and moat, but in the distress of the times.
And after the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.
According to how you write it, (if you see it as one person) it means that the same Messiah came and gone at the same time.
You say that from time X until the Messiah there would be 7+62=69 weeks.
And then you say that after the 62 weeks (which is the 62 in 7+62) the Messiah will be cut off.
So it means that his coming and cutting off are at the same time?
both events would happen in 69 weeks after time X?
Does that what you mean?
I don't see how we can read it like that.
(not to mention ignoring the split of 7+62 as if it isn't really written).