ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm
Jer 29:10 was given right after Jeconiah was taken captive, which was the beginning of the 70-year captivity (29:1-2).
So from the giving of that word until Cyrus is 69 years, not 49.
You need to remember that the dates that are in the bible not always the same as the dates according to the historians.
yes. I do not trust the ancient dates from historians.
ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
But still... it fits in both views.
The prophecy to Jer. about rebuilding Jerusalem should start when the temple is destroyed, right?
There is no need to assume that. Jer 29:1-2 says when Jeremiah gave the prophecy. At the beginning of the 70 year captivity.
Isaiah gave prophecies about the rebuilding of the temple and Jerusalem, long before it was destroyed.
(As far as I know, Isaiah did not even prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, but he prophesied in detail about its restoration.)
ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
In Jer. 51:12 it is said that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple in the 19th years of his ruling.
The Prophecy of Jer. says that Jerusalem will start to be built after 70 years of Babylon Ruling. (29:10)
Now take these 70 years minus 19 years = 51
and that is the time that is counted according to the bible.
***
And if you'll go to the Historians...
Then the temple was destroyed in -586
The Cyrus Cylinder is in -538
=48
Thanks, David. That is helpful to me to see this timeline, but that is the time from the destruction of the temple to Cyrus, not from Jeremiah's prophecy to Cyrus.
ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
According to the context, this whole chapter starts with the fact that Daniel reads Jer. prophecy and starts asking this question. (Daniel 9:2).
Jer. prophecy about restoring Jerusalem is the basis of this whole thing.
agreed
ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
Notice also that in Jer. 29:10 it is called דברי הטוב (my good word)
good point but weak.
ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
And once again I have to say that seeing this דבר linked to any word that would come in the future is not reasonable because it leaves Daniel clueless even though he was precious to God and Gabriel was sent to give him the answer.
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm
I don't know why you are so dismissive of Cyrus' proclamation but give this one serious consideration.
I dismiss any future event to be seen as this דבר.
As I said before, it turns these words to Daniel into vain words.
As I said before, you make an excellent point that Daniel was to understand this prophecy.
(I added what you said to my notes in BibleWorks.)
Cyrus' proclamation came shortly after this, and it was a monumental miracle.
Daniel would understand this as the beginning of the 70 weeks.
ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
And also, Daniel seeks to find When will Jerusalem will be built, right?
So what is the answer that you propose?
You propose that Gabriel came and started telling him things that would start to happen when Jerusalem will be built.
But WHEN it will be built?
Daniel does not ask, When will Jerusalem be built? He already knows that from Jeremiah's prophecy.
Daniel prays for God to act to fulfill His promise. In other prayers prophets ask How long? When?
I don't see that question anywhere in Dan 9. The requests in Daniel's prayer are vv16-19:
for God to turn away His anger from Jerusalem, to cause His face to shine upon His desolate sanctuary, to forgive, and to do what You had promised.
The answer through Gabriel tells Daniel that there will be a word to restore Jerusalem. It will be unmistakable.
And you will know that what you have prayed has been answered.
ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm
Why is this reading not possible?:
From the going forth of the word to bring back and to build Jerusalem until Messiah, Prince is 7 weeks + 62 weeks.
She shall return and be built, the street and moat, but in the distress of the times.
And after the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.
According to how you write it, (if you see it as one person) it means that the same Messiah came and gone at the same time.
You say that from time X until the Messiah there would be 7+62=69 weeks.
And then you say that after the 62 weeks (which is the 62 in 7+62) the Messiah will be cut off.
So it means that his coming and cutting off are at the same time?
both events would happen in 69 weeks after time X?
Does that what you mean?
Yes, that is what I mean.
Jesus' ministry was less than 7 years. So His ministry started in the 69th week and ended at the end of the 69th week.
ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am
(not to mention ignoring the split of 7+62 as if it isn't really written).
As I said before, the 1st 7 weeks accomplish the anointing of the holy of holies and the sealing of the vision and prophet.
If it should be translated:
From the going forth of the word to return and to build Jerusalem unto messiah the prince are 7 weeks.
And [then for] 62 weeks she shall return and be built ..
If the above is the meaning, then the "and 62 weeks" line should start with a waw consecutive.
But, I would have expected the middle of v26
וְהָעִ֙יר וְהַקֹּ֜דֶשׁ יַ֠שְׁחִית עַ֣ם נָגִ֤יד הַבָּא֙
to also have started with a waw consecutive, since it comes after the messiah being cut off.
David, Thank you for the time you spent talking to me on this. I always learn a lot from you.