Isaiah 18:1
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Isaiah 18:1
צִלְצַ֣ל
Could someone help me to understand the idea in hebrew thought behind doubling a noun as in the above word from verse 1 of Isaiah 18. I have come across other words like this but unfortunately I can not remember any. That is of course, unless this is a noun formed from a root צִלל.
Of course, the idea of a shadow is conveyed, but not meant otherwise we would have just צִל, the idea of a whirring buzzing noise is conveyed also, so my immediate thought is that the ambiguity is the correct meaning, ie, both thoughts are conveyed. I accept the idea of insects, but due to the obscure nature of the context and the fact that if locusts were meant or the tse tse fly were intended, there would have been more directness and no need to be so cryptic. And then of course we have in Job 40:31 (41:7 in English) 'Spears' This throws a spanner in the works, to get the idea of whirring and buzzing from a spear, why not use the word Spear itself for which there are a couple of words to choose from? A little mysterious for me.
What are your thoughts please?
Chris watts
Could someone help me to understand the idea in hebrew thought behind doubling a noun as in the above word from verse 1 of Isaiah 18. I have come across other words like this but unfortunately I can not remember any. That is of course, unless this is a noun formed from a root צִלל.
Of course, the idea of a shadow is conveyed, but not meant otherwise we would have just צִל, the idea of a whirring buzzing noise is conveyed also, so my immediate thought is that the ambiguity is the correct meaning, ie, both thoughts are conveyed. I accept the idea of insects, but due to the obscure nature of the context and the fact that if locusts were meant or the tse tse fly were intended, there would have been more directness and no need to be so cryptic. And then of course we have in Job 40:31 (41:7 in English) 'Spears' This throws a spanner in the works, to get the idea of whirring and buzzing from a spear, why not use the word Spear itself for which there are a couple of words to choose from? A little mysterious for me.
What are your thoughts please?
Chris watts
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
Have you considered other PLPL roots?Chris Watts wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:31 am צִלְצַ֣ל
Could someone help me to understand the idea in hebrew thought behind doubling a noun as in the above word from verse 1 of Isaiah 18. I have come across other words like this but unfortunately I can not remember any. That is of course, unless this is a noun formed from a root צִלל.
Of course, the idea of a shadow is conveyed, but not meant otherwise we would have just צִל, the idea of a whirring buzzing noise is conveyed also, so my immediate thought is that the ambiguity is the correct meaning, ie, both thoughts are conveyed. I accept the idea of insects, but due to the obscure nature of the context and the fact that if locusts were meant or the tse tse fly were intended, there would have been more directness and no need to be so cryptic. And then of course we have in Job 40:31 (41:7 in English) 'Spears' This throws a spanner in the works, to get the idea of whirring and buzzing from a spear, why not use the word Spear itself for which there are a couple of words to choose from? A little mysterious for me.
What are your thoughts please?
Chris watts
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
Paul Joüon and T. Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2006), 157.§59.b
3) The form pilpẹl with repetition of the first and last consonants occurs in ע״ו verbs in which it is properly a pilpẹl, and in ע״ע verbs in which it is properly piʿpẹʿ. In many cases it is difficult to choose between these two classes of verbs. The passive is pulpa̧l and the reflexive hiṯpa̧lpẹl. Examples: גִּלְגֵּל to roll (tr.); הִתְגַּלְגֵּל to roll (intr.) (from √גלל); טִלְטֵל to throw (from √טול); the frequent כִּלְכֵּל to sustain somebody, passive כָּלְכַּל (prob. from √כיל); הִתְמַהְמַהּ to hesitate (root?)².
[Footnote] 2. Most verbs of this group as well as of the group in the following paragraph showing repetition of two consonants signify repetition of an action, often in quick succession. See Eitan 1920–21: 174–77 and Yannay 1974: 71–95.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
Other pilpel/piʿpeʿ verbs in the biblical corpus:
לְגַלְגֵּל from √גלל
לְזַעְזֵעַ from √זוע
לְזַפְזֵף from √זרף
לְחַרְחֵר from √חרר
לְטַאְטֵא from √טאטא (notice the aleph has sheva!)
לְטַלְטֵל from √טול
לְכַלְכֵּל from √כול
לְכַרְכֵּר from √כרר
לְלַעְלֵעַ from √לעע
לְנַעְנֵעַ from √נוע
לְסַכְסֵךְ from √סוך
לְסַלְסֵל from √סלל
לְלַעְלֵעַ from √לעע
לְעַרְעֵר from √עור or √עיר or √ערר (second root)
לְפַצְפֵּץ from √פצץ
לְפַרְפֵּר from √פרר
לְצַפְצֵף from √צפף
לְקַלְקֵל from √קלל
לְשַׂגְשֵׂג from √שׂגג
לְשַׁעְשֵׁעַ from √שׁעע
לְתַעְתֵּעַ from √תעע
These are all the pilpel verbs that I found by doing a search through HALOT. Some of them are reconstructed. You should look at them individually in a lexicon.
Hope it's helpful.
לְגַלְגֵּל from √גלל
לְזַעְזֵעַ from √זוע
לְזַפְזֵף from √זרף
לְחַרְחֵר from √חרר
לְטַאְטֵא from √טאטא (notice the aleph has sheva!)
לְטַלְטֵל from √טול
לְכַלְכֵּל from √כול
לְכַרְכֵּר from √כרר
לְלַעְלֵעַ from √לעע
לְנַעְנֵעַ from √נוע
לְסַכְסֵךְ from √סוך
לְסַלְסֵל from √סלל
לְלַעְלֵעַ from √לעע
לְעַרְעֵר from √עור or √עיר or √ערר (second root)
לְפַצְפֵּץ from √פצץ
לְפַרְפֵּר from √פרר
לְצַפְצֵף from √צפף
לְקַלְקֵל from √קלל
לְשַׂגְשֵׂג from √שׂגג
לְשַׁעְשֵׁעַ from √שׁעע
לְתַעְתֵּעַ from √תעע
These are all the pilpel verbs that I found by doing a search through HALOT. Some of them are reconstructed. You should look at them individually in a lexicon.
Hope it's helpful.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
The word צלצל is used so seldom and in different ways that it’s difficult to get a handle on its meaning. The ancients may have known, but already by the LXX it was forgotten.Chris Watts wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:31 am צִלְצַ֣ל
Could someone help me to understand the idea in hebrew thought behind doubling a noun as in the above word from verse 1 of Isaiah 18. I have come across other words like this but unfortunately I can not remember any. That is of course, unless this is a noun formed from a root צִלל.
Of course, the idea of a shadow is conveyed, but not meant otherwise we would have just צִל, the idea of a whirring buzzing noise is conveyed also, so my immediate thought is that the ambiguity is the correct meaning, ie, both thoughts are conveyed. I accept the idea of insects, but due to the obscure nature of the context and the fact that if locusts were meant or the tse tse fly were intended, there would have been more directness and no need to be so cryptic. And then of course we have in Job 40:31 (41:7 in English) 'Spears' This throws a spanner in the works, to get the idea of whirring and buzzing from a spear, why not use the word Spear itself for which there are a couple of words to choose from? A little mysterious for me.
What are your thoughts please?
Chris watts
In Psalm 150:5 it refers to two varieties of a musical instrument. Is this instrument a cymbal as traditionally understood, or a type of rattle? Also 2 Samuel 6:5.
In Deuteronomy 28:42 and Isaiah 18:1 has been understood as locust swarm.
In Job 40:31 ???? a special fishing spear?
The Job passage is more problematic—is it the skin that fills the שכות or do the שכות fill the skin? The same is true of the next phrase, what fills what? There are enough words in this verse that are unknown that leaves us guessing. What role does the previous verse have in trying to interpret this verse, that this creature is divided among merchants?
Of course, we cannot leave out that we are dealing with a homograph.
It looks as if I’ve only muddied the waters more.
Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
Jason thankyou for your exhaustive references, a search through these is beneficial.
Karl, I had of course already gone through these before I posted, but thankyou for taking the time to post anyway.
After careful consideration I think that the idea of both a noise as something flying, the noise of a wing and a shadow is conveyed. Since the following clause mentions wings, the idea is not lost methinks. One has suggested an allusion to Egypt due to their winged gods, but this is highly improbable. Mainly because Isaiah would have not been so elusive and he simply could have said the Nile instead.
chris watts
Karl, I had of course already gone through these before I posted, but thankyou for taking the time to post anyway.
After careful consideration I think that the idea of both a noise as something flying, the noise of a wing and a shadow is conveyed. Since the following clause mentions wings, the idea is not lost methinks. One has suggested an allusion to Egypt due to their winged gods, but this is highly improbable. Mainly because Isaiah would have not been so elusive and he simply could have said the Nile instead.
chris watts
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
I just found out that the Lexham Hebrew Bible on Logos (as opposed to Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) allows you to search more specifically. It has a longer list of secondary binyanim, so I was able to do a search specifically for all instances of pilpel verbs in the Tanach, and I've linked to the results as a PDF here:
https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/uploads/p ... ch_lhb.pdf
Enjoy!
https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/uploads/p ... ch_lhb.pdf
Enjoy!
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
Hallo Jason, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Definitely a study through this is going to be helpful. Thankyou.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:20 pm I just found out that the Lexham Hebrew Bible on Logos (as opposed to Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) allows you to search more specifically. It has a longer list of secondary binyanim, so I was able to do a search specifically for all instances of pilpel verbs in the Tanach, and I've linked to the results as a PDF here
Chris watts
- Kirk Lowery
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
Jason,
This is off topic, but you mentioned using Logos for doing this research. May I ask: what packages do you have for doing Hebrew? (I'd also be interested in what you have for Greek.) The reason I'm interested is that I've decided to migrate from BibleWorks (R.I.P.), and am considering what is minimally necessary to do work in the Hebrew Bible. Thanks.
This is off topic, but you mentioned using Logos for doing this research. May I ask: what packages do you have for doing Hebrew? (I'd also be interested in what you have for Greek.) The reason I'm interested is that I've decided to migrate from BibleWorks (R.I.P.), and am considering what is minimally necessary to do work in the Hebrew Bible. Thanks.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 18:1
The package that I got was really light/simple. It doesn't exist anymore. It was the SESB 2.0 package. It has NA27, BHS, BHQ (six volumes), lots of translations. I purchased BHQ Genesis separately and HALOT/BDAG bundle separately. My Logos isn't very robust, but I like what I have - and I pick up the free book every month and sometimes a couple of others on sale.Kirk Lowery wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:01 am Jason,
This is off topic, but you mentioned using Logos for doing this research. May I ask: what packages do you have for doing Hebrew? (I'd also be interested in what you have for Greek.) The reason I'm interested is that I've decided to migrate from BibleWorks (R.I.P.), and am considering what is minimally necessary to do work in the Hebrew Bible. Thanks.
I paid only $75 for my package. I can see if the person who sold it to me has another key that I can get to you.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳