Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Classical Hebrew morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
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Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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Kenneth Greifer wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:46 am Jason,
Maybe I am asking you a personal question that you don't want to discuss, but I am really curious how much time you and Dewayne spent studying a language each day during high school or college. If you don't want to discuss that I understand. I think it would be interesting to know what worked for you two and any other people who are reading this discussion. I will try to look at the link you gave later.
Well, I wasn't the most social of people during high school. The only socializing I did was at church and with those in my school's concert choir (who were also mostly members of my church). I was on the math league team, but I didn't really talk to the people who went to competition with me. I just did my tests, and even when I worked as part of a team, I found my own answers and then convinced them to follow my work. I wasn't big on working in teams, and I didn't enjoy hanging out with people in groups. When I did socialize outside of these frameworks, it was one-on-one. When it got any bigger, I got social anxiety and shut down. I just wasn't good with people.

I was really good at studying, though. It was in my senior year that I borrowed Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek from my pastor. One of my aunts purchased me my first Greek New Testament, and I managed to put together some money to get Mounce's Morphology of Biblical Greek for myself. I was the kind of kid who went home right after school, and while my mom was out, I lay down on the living room floor with books all around me and sheets of paper in piles. I copied paradigms from BBG up until the chapter on the imperfect tense (chapter 21, if I remember correctly). I was kinda obsessed, and it was at that point that I started memorizing New Testament verses in Greek. Hebrew didn't start with me until my second year of Bible college at 19 years old.

I found Spanish really easy. We used a textbook that focused on short vocabulary and grammar explanations with the emphasis on dialogues that students read to one another. I took my book home from school the first day of my junior year and read the whole book in a week. I just looked over the vocabulary and read the dialogues to myself. By the second week of Spanish 1, I got permission from my Spanish teacher (who passed away about two weeks ago, may her memory always be with me to inspire and remind me of human kindness) to sit in on her second-year class (which happened to be during my study hall period). I had to finish my first year, of course, but I was doing Spanish twice a day throughout my junior year. This didn't push me to fluency, but I didn't really have to spend too much time out-of-school studying Spanish. It came to me without struggle. Even in college, I did my degree in Spanish basically because it was after Bible college and I just wanted to finish a degree as quickly as I could. I didn't take the first two years of Spanish in college. I tested out for credit and started in the three-hundred level courses, which was the level of courses for those majoring in the language.

Hebrew did require a lot of study time, though. I found it more difficult in the beginning than either Spanish or Greek. We used Seow's textbook when I was first learning Hebrew, and after a few chapters he had some translation notes and assigned us to read portions of the Bible. I probably spent two hours per class on my Hebrew translation exercises outside of class, and I had class twice a week. I did the translation exercises quickly enough, but I read the Scripture passages several times. I would translate them according to the helps that Seow provided. Then, I'd read through them and try to make sense of them without the translations in front of me. And I read them until they made sense, and then I'd compare to a few translations to see if I was missing anything.

I didn't really start committing Hebrew texts to memory, though, until after I'd left Bible college (I left in my junior year because of a crisis of faith, one might say). The first texts that I memorized were the first creation day of Genesis 1, the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20, Psalm 1 and 23. That was where I started putting Hebrew into my soul.

My Hebrew prof told me that I was doing great with Hebrew during our first year, but I really felt that I was struggling. When we got out of the qal, it took me a while to adjust my thinking and absorb the idea of the different binyanim (especially because these aren't easily or clearly taught by anyone, I think). Hebrew didn't start to make good sense until my second year (when we translated through the Joseph Story and Hosea and looked at the Mesha Stele and Siloam Pool Inscription). Hebrew came to life for me, though, when I learned modern Hebrew as part of my plan to move to Israel and afterwards.

So, I guess it was about four hours of study a week outside of class, whereas the class itself was three hours per week (1.5 hours per day, twice a week).
Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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talmid56 wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:06 am I may be mistaken, but I get the feeling you think that unless you can devote vast amounts of time to the project it is doomed to failure. I never meant to imply this, and did not say so. I think the main thing is to devote time to it each week if you can. How much time will depend on your degree of interest and your circumstances. With the use of audio and digital aids, you can do it away from home some also, which may provide some additional time.
Indeed. I have to say that I'm surprised how much DuoLingo has improved their Hebrew course since I first encountered it. They have a course in modern Hebrew, and I've recently become a volunteer "Global Ambassador" and event host for modern Hebrew, having just found out that there are speaking events hosted on DuoLingo. I'm quite excited about the endeavor.

It isn't that you have to study for hours on end, but you should do your best to make your goal reading and reading passages from the Bible. Not trying to find magic words in the text ("dynamis means dynamite power!" and "agapē is God's kind of unconditional love"), but learn to see how words fit together in syntactic units and what the message is that is being conveyed without being bogged down.
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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Jason and Dewayne,
It was interesting to read about your experiences with modern and ancient language learning. My experiences have been the opposite of yours, but people are different. You two are more into scholarly pursuits obviously. How did you learn the very high level grammar that you both understand so well? Did you learn in some grammar classes or grammar books or from the language books because I have read many very technical discussion here on this forum discussing grammar that seems very hard to understand?
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Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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We started sentence diagramming in English in the sixth grade. I quickly learned to think in terms of subject, verb, objects, modifiers (adjectives and adverbs), and prepositional phrases. Diagramming made sense to me. So, when it came to Spanish and Greek, the grammar was pretty clear. Hebrew took me a bit longer because of the binyanim. I think you're right that things click more easily for some people. I don't know what it would have been like for me had I been a "normal" kid. I was always a bit eccentric and non-social, though I'm pleasant and agreeable. I just enjoy being alone. Zoom has been awesome for me, since I can meet with people without having to leave my comfort zone (though I do enjoy being in front of a classroom).
Jason Hare
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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Jason,
I mean where did you learn the hard grammar, the very high-level stuff you all discuss here? Is it from Hebrew language books or just in general grammar stuff you learned in English grammar that you use with Hebrew too? I never heard of most of these grammar topics before. Recently, Kirk recommended a book on Hebrew grammar by Waltke and O'Connor, I believe, and I was looking at it, and it was full of grammar I never heard of. How can I read a book on Hebrew grammar without understanding the grammar part? I would need a book about grammar to understand a grammar book that expects you to know high level grammar.
Last edited by Kenneth Greifer on Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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Kenneth Greifer wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:41 pm Jason,
I mean where did you learn the hard grammar, the very high-level stuff you all discuss here? Is it from Hebrew language books or just in general grammar stuff you learned in English grammar that you use with Hebrew too? I never heard of most of these grammar topics before. Recently, Kirk recommended a book on Hebrew grammar by Waltke and O'Connor, believe, and I was looking at it, and it was full of grammar I never heard of. How can I read a book on Hebrew grammar without understanding the grammar part? I would need a book about grammar to understand a grammar book that expects you to know high level grammar.
Ah, I guess I learned harder grammar while learning Greek. I used Mounce as the basis of my study, but I read through Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics after that. While in college, I took courses in syntax and linguistics (specifically, Spanish syntax and general linguistics). For the most part, I've done a lot of reading. I'm not sure what is high-level. Maybe you mean "syntax" by "high-level grammar." I'm not sure how to determine that.
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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Have you studied Greek? Have you read through Smyth's Greek Grammar? If you spent time reading Gesenius's Hebrew Grammar, you'd probably learn a bunch of grammatical terms. You read until you get a headache, then you let it rest. Then you pick it up and get a headache later. Don't expect to understand everything, but keep trying.
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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Jason Hare wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:15 pm Have you studied Greek? Have you read through Smyth's Greek Grammar? If you spent time reading Gesenius's Hebrew Grammar, you'd probably learn a bunch of grammatical terms. You read until you get a headache, then you let it rest. Then you pick it up and get a headache later. Don't expect to understand everything, but keep trying.
Jason,
I have never studied Greek, and I really don't understand the grammatical terms in Gesenius' book. I can try again in the future, but not now.
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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Kenneth Greifer wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:46 am Jason,
I have never studied Greek, and I really don't understand the grammatical terms in Gesenius' book. I can try again in the future, but not now.
Have you at least considered studying through a learning grammar of Hebrew? Gesenius is a reference grammar. But there are grammars that attempt to simplify and explain to students, such as Learning Biblical Hebrew by Kutz and Josberger. Have you thought about going through one of them and learning the grammar of Hebrew?
Jason Hare
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

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Jason Hare wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:28 pm
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:46 am Jason,
I have never studied Greek, and I really don't understand the grammatical terms in Gesenius' book. I can try again in the future, but not now.
Have you at least considered studying through a learning grammar of Hebrew? Gesenius is a reference grammar. But there are grammars that attempt to simplify and explain to students, such as Learning Biblical Hebrew by Kutz and Josberger. Have you thought about going through one of them and learning the grammar of Hebrew?
I didn't know there is a difference really. In the future I would like to, but what is the book by Waltke and O'Connor that is called something like the syntax of Biblical Hebrew? Which one is that? You can read it on Googlebooks for free practically.
Kenneth Greifer
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