Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:20 am
Jason, thankyou.
Karl, while I find your reasoning convincing and tempting to believe based upon the strength of your argument, it seems rather a surface gloss accross a few pages, thoughts below the surface persuade me otherwise, there is still no concrete evidence that common street Hebrew was not spoken while grandmother was buying her chicken at the market and a pregnant mum was discussing her excitement that her first child would be born in Judah having just trekked a few thousand miles from the Euphrates.
Chris: there was one time I would have agreed with you. I later realized that my belief that Hebrew had continued to be natively spoken was mere wishful thinking, that none of the evidence that I’ve seen requires native speaking, that a learned second language can also explain the same phenomena.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:20 am
My reasoning is well attested evidence though not biblically founded and that is this: A community that has such super strong bonds to its identity and traditions does not lose its mother language, changes may occur yes, but its identity is bound up with its language. Its language is its cultural identity. Today there are a number of North American Indian tribes that have retained their native language and YET they are more assimilated and more culturally chained to an English speaking environment than the Jews were in an Aramaic environment. This was not the case with Judah, they were not assimilated until they became seriously dispersed after AD 135.
The indications that I’ve read is that Jews were not culturally isolated into ghettos during the Babylonian and Persian eras. This was mentioned in the Book of Esther. When Paul was on his missionary journeys, almost every major city he entered had a synagog or at least a place where Jews gathered to worship. Jews were seriously dispersed before 135 AD.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:20 am
A single verse from the scripture about a bunch of foreign speaking kids can not wipe out colloquial Hebrew Karl.
This was a serious event mentioned by both Ezra and Nehemiah, because…
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:20 am
The language of worship before Babylon was Hebrew,
And it continues to be the language of worship. Have you ever visited a synagog and heard the cantor chant the Torah and Haftorah readings for the day? Or how about the sung blessings for the bread and wine? Hebrew continues to be used. Similar to the Latin mass in the Roman Catholic church.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:20 am
… but not a shred of evidence is even hinted at that colloquial hebrew was forgotten by an entire nation.
There is evidence that native speaking of Hebrew ceased. There’s no evidence that the language was forgotten, a claim that I never made, but there’s also no evidence that Hebrew was the language spoken in the market nor on the street. In fact, the evidence from Ezra and Nehemiah was that Hebrew was not used on the street nor in the market during their time. I have seen no evidence that it was revived as a natively spoken language at a later date.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:20 am
The true demise of that colloquial hebrew did not come until well after AD 135, this is when I believe it would have been assaulted by despair and hopelessness, when thousands were sent into slavery and the final doom of all Israel, its belief in restoration vanished from the pages and from the hearts.
Tiberian Hebrew, the basis of the Masoretic points, is a type of colloquial Hebrew. It came long after 135 AD.
My conclusions are not carved into stone, rather based on the evidence I’ve seen so far. But if you have evidence I haven’t seen before, I’m willing to reconsider.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:20 am
Karl wrote :
The Babylonian exile lasted 2.5–3 generations, long enough for the pattern to lead to the extinction of the immigrants’ languages.
My argument is that it is impossible to dogmatically say that the last Hebrew speaker died out around 500 BC and that Street/market Hebrew was no longer used in conversation after this.
I don’t say that dogmatically, rather that the evidence suggests it. But the evidence is that street/market was already out of use before the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:20 am
Karl wrote :
According to Jeremiah 43, there were none left in Judah. Those who weren’t taken into captivity with Nebuchadnezzar fled to Egypt, every last one of them. There were none left
Jer 44:28 consoles me that many returned back to Judah.
That verse says only a few, not many.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:20 am
But having said this, there was always a remnant left in the land, always, no matter how small.
Not according to Jeremiah.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:20 am
Even after 135AD there remained Jews in the land. How else would we have the Palestinian pointer system if it did not originate from the dialect of the land?
That was a different event, with different results.
Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:20 am
On top of this Saenz-Badillos comments casually that there is evidence that a vernacular form of Hebrew was still spoken in the south post exillic times and this led to the form of Rabbinic Hebrew. Now I am no scholar here, just quoting him.
Chris watts
So he’s the source of wishful thinking? Notice, he says “spoken”, not “natively spoken”. Remember, there’s a difference between those two terms.
Karl W. Randolph.