Isa 49:8
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- SteveMiller
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Isa 49:8
Isaiah 49:8
כֹּ֣ה׀ אָמַ֣ר יְהוָ֗ה בְּעֵ֤ת רָצוֹן֙ עֲנִיתִ֔יךָ וּבְי֥וֹם יְשׁוּעָ֖ה עֲזַרְתִּ֑יךָ וְאֶצָּרְךָ֗ וְאֶתֶּנְךָ֙ לִבְרִ֣ית עָ֔ם לְהָקִ֣ים אֶ֔רֶץ לְהַנְחִ֖יל נְחָל֥וֹת שֹׁמֵמֽוֹת׃
ESV Isaiah 49:8 Thus says the LORD: "In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages,
My question is on the phrase וְאֶתֶּנְךָ֙ לִבְרִ֣ית עָ֔ם.
I would translate it similar to ESV - and I gave gave you for a covenant of a people.
But some translations translate it as "and I appointed you as a people of a covenant".
Is that 2nd translation possible from the text?
thank you.
כֹּ֣ה׀ אָמַ֣ר יְהוָ֗ה בְּעֵ֤ת רָצוֹן֙ עֲנִיתִ֔יךָ וּבְי֥וֹם יְשׁוּעָ֖ה עֲזַרְתִּ֑יךָ וְאֶצָּרְךָ֗ וְאֶתֶּנְךָ֙ לִבְרִ֣ית עָ֔ם לְהָקִ֣ים אֶ֔רֶץ לְהַנְחִ֖יל נְחָל֥וֹת שֹׁמֵמֽוֹת׃
ESV Isaiah 49:8 Thus says the LORD: "In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages,
My question is on the phrase וְאֶתֶּנְךָ֙ לִבְרִ֣ית עָ֔ם.
I would translate it similar to ESV - and I gave gave you for a covenant of a people.
But some translations translate it as "and I appointed you as a people of a covenant".
Is that 2nd translation possible from the text?
thank you.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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Re: Isa 49:8
Besides saying "...for a covenant of a people, to raise up a land...", couldn't it say "...for a covenant, a people to raise up a land..."?SteveMiller wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:38 am Isaiah 49:8
כֹּ֣ה׀ אָמַ֣ר יְהוָ֗ה בְּעֵ֤ת רָצוֹן֙ עֲנִיתִ֔יךָ וּבְי֥וֹם יְשׁוּעָ֖ה עֲזַרְתִּ֑יךָ וְאֶצָּרְךָ֗ וְאֶתֶּנְךָ֙ לִבְרִ֣ית עָ֔ם לְהָקִ֣ים אֶ֔רֶץ לְהַנְחִ֖יל נְחָל֥וֹת שֹׁמֵמֽוֹת׃
ESV Isaiah 49:8 Thus says the LORD: "In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages,
My question is on the phrase וְאֶתֶּנְךָ֙ לִבְרִ֣ית עָ֔ם.
I would translate it similar to ESV - and I gave gave you for a covenant of a people.
But some translations translate it as "and I appointed you as a people of a covenant".
Is that 2nd translation possible from the text?
thank you.
Kenneth Greifer
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isa 49:8
The initial question there is easily answered. The word לָתֵת “to give” (נת״ן) also means “to put, place, allow.” It is a very flexible term.
Look at the following information from HALOT:
Look at the following information from HALOT:
—13. with two acc., to turn someone into something (parallel with שׂים) אַב־הֲמוֹן גּוֹיִם נְתַתִּיךָ to make the father of a multitude of nations Gn 17:5, נָ׳ תָּמִים דַּרְכִּי he made my way blameless Ps 18:33 (:: 2S 22:33 וַיַּתֵּר, נתר, ? rd. וָאֶתַּר); → Ex 7:1 Dt 28:7 Jr 1:5; with acc. and לְ: נְתַתִּיו לְגוֹי Gn 17:20 48:4 Is 49:6 Jr 1:18 etc.; נָ׳ לְאָלָה to turn into (the object of) an oath Nu 5:21 Jr 24:9, לְמָשָׁל into a laughing-stock 2C 7:20; with acc. and כְּ: נָ׳ כְּרָחֵל Ru 4:11, Is 41:2 (rd. יִתְּנֵם), 1K 10:27; with acc. and לִפְנֵי (= לְ ?) 1S 1:16 (cf. Stoebe KAT 8/1:91); נָ׳ לְרַחֲמִים לִפְנֵי to let someone find compassion 1K 8:50 Ps 106:46 Neh 1:11, נָ׳ לְחֶסֶד וּלְרַחֲמִים Da 1:9.
[Ludwig Koehler et al., The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1994–2000), 734–735.]
The section is red is the relevant part to this. It addresses using לָתֵת with an accusative (meaning, direct object) and the attached preposition לְ־, as we have in the verse in question. Just like נְתַתִּיו לְגוֹי in Genesis 17:20 and other verses means “I have made you a nation,” so וְאֶתֶּנְךָ֙ לִבְרִ֣ית עָ֔ם means “I have made you a covenant of (the) people.” In both cases, the accusative (i.e., direct object) is the attached 2ms pronoun and the thing that God has “set” the person as is preceded by the attached preposition לְ־. The first uses the qatal form, which the second uses a weqatal, but the verb is the same in both cases. It can mean “I have appointed you as,” “I have set you as,” “I have placed you as,” or simply, “I have made you.” This is a common sense of the verb לָתֵת.[Ludwig Koehler et al., The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1994–2000), 734–735.]
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isa 49:8
I don’t think it makes sense, and the trope (if you give it any weight) rules it out completely. The trope marks it necessarily as a construct phrase.Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:46 am Besides saying "...for a covenant of a people, to raise up a land...", couldn't it say "...for a covenant, a people to raise up a land..."?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Isa 49:8
I changed my mind.
Last edited by Kenneth Greifer on Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kenneth Greifer
- SteveMiller
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Re: Isa 49:8
thanks Jason! Is the trope the little curl under the resh in brit?
Kenneth,
When you have 2 consecutive nouns in Biblical Hebrew, they are either a construct chain, part of a list, or in apposition.
When you say "for a covenant, a people" you are putting "a covenant" in apposition to "a people", which means that the covenant here = the people. It is like saying "Mr. Jones, the Treasurer." It doesn't make sense here.
In a noun construct chain, it is translated <noun1> of <noun2>, which is the only option that makes sense here.
These are not part of a list because there is no "and".
Kenneth,
Then you are leaving out the preposition "le"It could say "I have made you a covenant of a people"
When you have 2 consecutive nouns in Biblical Hebrew, they are either a construct chain, part of a list, or in apposition.
When you say "for a covenant, a people" you are putting "a covenant" in apposition to "a people", which means that the covenant here = the people. It is like saying "Mr. Jones, the Treasurer." It doesn't make sense here.
In a noun construct chain, it is translated <noun1> of <noun2>, which is the only option that makes sense here.
These are not part of a list because there is no "and".
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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- Posts: 669
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm
Re: Isa 49:8
I changed my mind.
Last edited by Kenneth Greifer on Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kenneth Greifer
- SteveMiller
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Re: Isa 49:8
Then you have 2 sentences and need a period: I have made you for a covenant. A people is for lifting up a land.Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:42 pm Steve,
I guess I should have written out the quote better. "...I have made (given) you for a covenant, a people is for lifting up a land..." or "...I have made (given) you for a covenant, a people is for a lifting up of a land..."
I still don't see how it makes sense.
Would it be more straightforward to render it: I will give you for a covenant of a people, to raise up a land, to cause to inherit desolate heritages.
God gives the servant for 3 purposes: for a covenant of a people, for raising up a land, to cause to inherit desolate heritages.
The second one makes sense. The first one doesn't. Why not translate 49:8 similar to your 2nd version of 42:6?Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:42 pmIn Isaiah 42:6, it could say: "...I have made (given) you for a covenant, a people is for a light of nations" or "...I have made (given) you for a covenant of a people, for a light of nations."
You are right. I missed that.Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:42 pmIf I understand him correctly, I think Jason says it says "...I have made you a covenant of a people..." without the word "for."
I understand it that the Messiah is for the new covenant of God's people.Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:42 pmI don't see how Israel in Israel in Isaiah 49 can be a covenant of a people.
Thanks Kenneth!
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isa 49:8
It’s not “leaving out” the preposition. It’s just that the preposition has a specific function: to indicate what someone became. It happens a lot. Specifically, הָיָה לְ־ often means “became,” not “became to.”
If we all vote for someone and make him president of our organization, we make him into the president, we put him in that position. We don’t have to use the word “into.” The difference between “I gave him a lot of money” (נָתַ֫תִּי לוֹ הַרְבֵּה כֶּ֫סֶף) and “I made him president of the organization” (נָתַ֫תִּי אוֹתוֹ לִנְשִׂיא הָאִרְגּוּן) is that in the first, “him” is the indirect object, whereas in the second “him” is the direct object. The indirect object is marked with lamed, whereas the direct object isn’t. In the second sentence, you use the lamed to indicate the thing that you made the other person. I’m not leaving out the lamed. I’m including it in my translation by changing the rendering of the verb from “gave” to “made.”
Genesis 2:7
וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃
It would be ridiculous to translate וַֽיְהִי הָֽאָדָם לְנֶ֫פֶשׁ חַיָּה with the preposition, something like “and the man was to a living soul.” No. It means “and the man became a living soul,” and the lamed prefix is “translated” in the sense that it changes the meaning of the verb from “was” to “became.” This is what is happening in the verse in question. It is what the person is made into.וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃
If we all vote for someone and make him president of our organization, we make him into the president, we put him in that position. We don’t have to use the word “into.” The difference between “I gave him a lot of money” (נָתַ֫תִּי לוֹ הַרְבֵּה כֶּ֫סֶף) and “I made him president of the organization” (נָתַ֫תִּי אוֹתוֹ לִנְשִׂיא הָאִרְגּוּן) is that in the first, “him” is the indirect object, whereas in the second “him” is the direct object. The indirect object is marked with lamed, whereas the direct object isn’t. In the second sentence, you use the lamed to indicate the thing that you made the other person. I’m not leaving out the lamed. I’m including it in my translation by changing the rendering of the verb from “gave” to “made.”
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isa 49:8
You cannot judge a translation as “making sense” based only on how it feels to you once someone has put it into English. The Hebrew, as we have received it, does not allow it to be split into two sentences (it is a construct phrase).
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳