That’s another huge assumption, though. If it was natural for them to use a specific linguistic form for telling stories, which was an important part of the communication of the past, why would it not become part of the written communication when narrative is involved?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:44 amI don’t buy that argument either. Maybe that’s because I write very much as a speak. So I expect the same of the Biblical writers.
Alphabet question please.
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- Jason Hare
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Re: Alphabet question please.
Jason Hare
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Re: Alphabet question please.
That is the case in certain cultures where history was orally passed down in poetry. We find this in the Scandinavian eddas and Homer. But the Hebrew history was composed to be written and in prose. Secondly the Wayyiqtol is used outside of narrative, but for the same purposes as in narrative, so it’s not a specific narrative literary form.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:53 amThat’s another huge assumption, though. If it was natural for them to use a specific linguistic form for telling stories, which was an important part of the communication of the past, why would it not become part of the written communication when narrative is involved?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:44 amI don’t buy that argument either. Maybe that’s because I write very much as a speak. So I expect the same of the Biblical writers.
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Alphabet question please.
Before responding to this, I need to be reminded if you think that vayyiqtol (וַיִּקְטֹל) and veyiqtol (וְיִקְטֹל) are the same form, seeing that they are both ויקטל in the consonantal text. Do you read a difference between vayyiqtol and veyiqtol?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:27 am That is the case in certain cultures where history was orally passed down in poetry. We find this in the Scandinavian eddas and Homer. But the Hebrew history was composed to be written and in prose. Secondly the Wayyiqtol is used outside of narrative, but for the same purposes as in narrative, so it’s not a specific narrative literary form.
Karl W. Randolph.
Jason Hare
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ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Alphabet question please.
Seeing as they are distinguished only by the Masoretic points, but otherwise written the same and provide the same grammatical functions, are there any reasons to say that they’re not the same?Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:51 pmBefore responding to this, I need to be reminded if you think that vayyiqtol (וַיִּקְטֹל) and veyiqtol (וְיִקְטֹל) are the same form, seeing that they are both ויקטל in the consonantal text. Do you read a difference between vayyiqtol and veyiqtol?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:27 am … the Wayyiqtol is used outside of narrative, but for the same purposes as in narrative, so it’s not a specific narrative literary form.
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Alphabet question please.
This just might be the source of your claim that there is no tense at all in Hebrew. This is indeed a major and essential distinction within the Hebrew verb system.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:33 amSeeing as they are distinguished only by the Masoretic points, but otherwise written the same and provide the same grammatical functions, are there any reasons to say that they’re not the same?Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:51 pmBefore responding to this, I need to be reminded if you think that vayyiqtol (וַיִּקְטֹל) and veyiqtol (וְיִקְטֹל) are the same form, seeing that they are both ויקטל in the consonantal text. Do you read a difference between vayyiqtol and veyiqtol?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:27 am … the Wayyiqtol is used outside of narrative, but for the same purposes as in narrative, so it’s not a specific narrative literary form.
Karl W. Randolph.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Alphabet question please.
It’s not the only source. I also look at how participles are used, how Qatals are used, etc. and see that they, too, are tenseless.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:58 amThis just might be the source of your claim that there is no tense at all in Hebrew. This is indeed a major and essential distinction within the Hebrew verb system.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:33 amSeeing as they are distinguished only by the Masoretic points, but otherwise written the same and provide the same grammatical functions, are there any reasons to say that they’re not the same?Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:51 pm
Before responding to this, I need to be reminded if you think that vayyiqtol (וַיִּקְטֹל) and veyiqtol (וְיִקְטֹל) are the same form, seeing that they are both ויקטל in the consonantal text. Do you read a difference between vayyiqtol and veyiqtol?
Karl W. Randolph.
I noticed that you didn’t answer my question. But before answering the explicit question, I notice that there’s a second, implicit question—do the two forms as distinguished by the Masoretes provide the same grammatical function? If not, what are the functional differences? How do we recognize them?
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Alphabet question please.
As far as I can tell, you don’t make a distinction between qal and piel in the perfect. Is this also true? Do you read שָׁבַ֫רְתִּי and שִׁבַּ֫רְתִּי, for example, as the same word?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:27 pm It’s not the only source. I also look at how participles are used, how Qatals are used, etc. and see that they, too, are tenseless.
These are indeed good questions. Should we start a new thread for this topic?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:27 pm I noticed that you didn’t answer my question. But before answering the explicit question, I notice that there’s a second, implicit question—do the two forms as distinguished by the Masoretes provide the same grammatical function? If not, what are the functional differences? How do we recognize them?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Alphabet question please.
I have long had questions concerning the Piel. Did it actually exist in Biblical times? (Yes, it can be recognized in its participial form.) What was its function during Biblical times? How was it recognized in Biblical times when there were no points?Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:21 amAs far as I can tell, you don’t make a distinction between qal and piel in the perfect. Is this also true? Do you read שָׁבַ֫רְתִּי and שִׁבַּ֫רְתִּי, for example, as the same word?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:27 pm It’s not the only source. I also look at how participles are used, how Qatals are used, etc. and see that they, too, are tenseless.
If we start a new thread, I think it should be under Classical Hebrew Language and Linguistics.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:21 amThese are indeed good questions. Should we start a new thread for this topic?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:27 pm I noticed that you didn’t answer my question. But before answering the explicit question, I notice that there’s a second, implicit question—do the two forms as distinguished by the Masoretes provide the same grammatical function? If not, what are the functional differences? How do we recognize them?
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Alphabet question please.
Because people knew the language.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:17 pm I have long had questions concerning the Piel. Did it actually exist in Biblical times? (Yes, it can be recognized in its participial form.) What was its function during Biblical times? How was it recognized in Biblical times when there were no points?
Sure.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:17 pm If we start a new thread, I think it should be under Classical Hebrew Language and Linguistics.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Re: Alphabet question please.
In other words, do you say that the Piel is functionally the same as the Qal? That all it is is a pronunciation variant of the Qal?Jason Hare wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:07 amBecause people knew the language.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:17 pm I have long had questions concerning the Piel. Did it actually exist in Biblical times? (Yes, it can be recognized in its participial form.) What was its function during Biblical times? How was it recognized in Biblical times when there were no points?
Or does the Piel have a function that distinguishes it from Qal?
OK, my next message on this topic will be there.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:07 amSure.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:17 pm If we start a new thread, I think it should be under Classical Hebrew Language and Linguistics.
Karl W. Randolph.