My only faulty logic was assuming that you had grown in any sense since our last interaction.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:39 pm In your presentation you have made two logical fallacies—you closed here with a straw man fallacy after begging the question.
Gen 4:7
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- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen 4:7
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Re: Gen 4:7
LOL!Jason Hare wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:52 pmMy only faulty logic was assuming that you had grown in any sense since our last interaction.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:39 pm In your presentation you have made two logical fallacies—you closed here with a straw man fallacy after begging the question.
That’s all your response deserves. Yes, I did actually laugh out loud when I read it. Grown compared to you? Hah!
This discussion is closed.
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen 4:7
It looks like it’s still open.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen 4:7
Jonathan,Jason Hare wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:19 pm Being a Ph.D. student, @Jonathan Beck might have better access to current resources. I use teaching grammars, since my hope with Hebrew is to bring people into knowledge of the language. As far as reference grammars go, you might look at A Biblical Hebrew Reference Grammar (2nd ed.) by Christo H.J. van der Merwe, Jacobus A. Naudé, and Jan H. Kroeze (Bloomsbury, 2017) and A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew by Paul Joüon and T. Muraoka (Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2006). I think Jonathan (or someone else here) might be able to make reference to other resources that I don’t know about.
Anything you might add here to this closed discussion?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Gen 4:7
The only other standard grammar is Waltke and O'Connor's Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax.
I don't care to comment on the previous "closed" discussion.
I don't care to comment on the previous "closed" discussion.
Jonathan Beck
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.
- Max S-R
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Re: Gen 4:7
It felt silly to make a new thread about this little question, so I'm adding it here. Forgive me if that's not what I should do.
Gen. 34 ends with the sententious response of Jacob's sons:
וַיּאֹמְרוּ הַכְזוֹנָה יַעֲשֶׂה אֶת־אֲחוֹתֵנוּ
My question is whether this יַעֲשֶׂה has as its implied subject the prince Shechem, or whether the 3rd person sg. (masc.) can be used generally (for this is the way the Septuagint seems to translate), as in:
[Is a man] to deal with our sister as with a whore?
Many thanks in advance.
Max S-R
Gen. 34 ends with the sententious response of Jacob's sons:
וַיּאֹמְרוּ הַכְזוֹנָה יַעֲשֶׂה אֶת־אֲחוֹתֵנוּ
My question is whether this יַעֲשֶׂה has as its implied subject the prince Shechem, or whether the 3rd person sg. (masc.) can be used generally (for this is the way the Septuagint seems to translate), as in:
[Is a man] to deal with our sister as with a whore?
Many thanks in advance.
Max S-R
"I yam what I yam." - Popeye the Sailor Man
שְׁתֵה בַיּוֹם עֲדֵי יִפֶן וְשֶׁמֶשׁ
עֲלֵי כַסְפּוֹ יְצַפֶּה אֶת זְהָבוֹ
שְׁתֵה בַיּוֹם עֲדֵי יִפֶן וְשֶׁמֶשׁ
עֲלֵי כַסְפּוֹ יְצַפֶּה אֶת זְהָבוֹ
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Re: Gen 4:7
וַיּאֹמְרוּ הַכְזוֹנָה יַעֲשֶׂה אֶת־אֲחוֹתֵנוּ
I read it as follows:
And they said (Wayyiqtol indicating continuation of narrative)
Question mark ה
As a prostitute
should do/make (referring to the action, hence masculine) (not referring to a specific individual)
our sister.
Or in more colloquial English, “And they said, ‘Should anyone treat our sister as a prostitute?’”
Karl W. Randolph.
I read it as follows:
And they said (Wayyiqtol indicating continuation of narrative)
Question mark ה
As a prostitute
should do/make (referring to the action, hence masculine) (not referring to a specific individual)
our sister.
Or in more colloquial English, “And they said, ‘Should anyone treat our sister as a prostitute?’”
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Gen 4:7
The Septuagint renders it with the aorist subjunctive middle χρήσωνται in a deliberative sense, “should they (people at large) use...?” The יעשה of this verse could be read either as qal 3cs “he will do” (יַעֲשֶׂה, as it is in the MT) or as niphal 3cs “it will be done” (יֵעָשֶׂה). If as the latter, we should understand the את as “with” rather than as the definite direct object marker (DDOM). Either is possible, if we disregard the pointing, and both would refer to an impersonal subject.Max S-R wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:46 am It felt silly to make a new thread about this little question, so I'm adding it here. Forgive me if that's not what I should do.
Gen. 34 ends with the sententious response of Jacob's sons:
וַיּאֹמְרוּ הַכְזוֹנָה יַעֲשֶׂה אֶת־אֲחוֹתֵנוּ
My question is whether this יַעֲשֶׂה has as its implied subject the prince Shechem, or whether the 3rd person sg. (masc.) can be used generally (for this is the way the Septuagint seems to translate), as in:
[Is a man] to deal with our sister as with a whore?
Many thanks in advance.
Max S-R
Notice that הכזונה comes from הֲ + כְזוֹנָה in which the he would close up on the preposition, producing a theoretical הֲכְזוֹנָה that resolves as הַכְזוֹנָה, since you cannot have two vocal shevas up against each other.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
- Max S-R
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Re: Gen 4:7
Many thanks!
- Max
- Max
"I yam what I yam." - Popeye the Sailor Man
שְׁתֵה בַיּוֹם עֲדֵי יִפֶן וְשֶׁמֶשׁ
עֲלֵי כַסְפּוֹ יְצַפֶּה אֶת זְהָבוֹ
שְׁתֵה בַיּוֹם עֲדֵי יִפֶן וְשֶׁמֶשׁ
עֲלֵי כַסְפּוֹ יְצַפֶּה אֶת זְהָבוֹ
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