Hi Karl,
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
The oldest witness we have to this reading is כארו which indicates that this is the original reading. כארי is the late reading.
This view of "older=more reliable" is not to be excepted in a decisive way as you propose. It is closing the eyes and avoiding looking at other factors.
I pointed out in my last post another issue that was discussed in this forum where the older physical source was not the loyal one to the original source.
You can easily read it and see what I mean.
Sometimes (or maybe often), the "reasonable" version is the false one, while the "weird" version is the loyal one.
In other words, we can see and understand how a weird version gets corrected and turned into a reasonable one.
But it is hard to assume that a reasonable version will be corrected and turned into a weird one.
Therefore, when there are two versions like the above ones, there is no point to be decisive.
Also, if the MT had the version of כארו, they wouldn't have changed it to כארי, but they would write it as a Qere and keep the spelling as it is.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
Nope. Tiberian Hebrew is a different language, not just a dialect, from Biblical Hebrew. Not only are there words that have different meanings than what they had in Biblical Hebrew, but the grammar had been changed. Many of the places where the Masoretes proposed emendations (Qere) are where they tried to read the Tanakh according to Tiberian word meanings and grammar.
I'm sorry, but you are using a wrong term.
Also, your view on the meaning of the Qere...
But let's not dwell on that.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
ducky wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:59 am
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:54 pm
There is confusion based on verses such as Genesis 26:25 where the assumption is made that in providing a well that the word itself meant “to dig”
If the כרה means "to provide" and not "to dig", how come it comes only in the matter of "ground holes" and wells?
Why can't we find the כרה when the king provides horses or slaves or wheat, or anything else?
It is just related to "ground holes" for good reasons or not.
Not true. There are several places where what is provided is not a hole in the ground.
First, I hope that you do agree with me that it would be weird if this root כרה, if its meaning is really "providing", would not be found in places like when there is a talk about providing food or workers and so on.
I mean, you say that the כרה is used for "providing a well" - so with that, we would surely expect it to be seen in clearer cases.
For example:
When Hiram sent his workers to David, It uses שלח.
2Sam 5:11 וַיִּשְׁלַח חִירָם מֶלֶךְ צֹר מַלְאָכִים אֶל דָּוִד וַעֲצֵי אֲרָזִים וְחָרָשֵׁי עֵץ וְחָרָשֵׁי אֶבֶן קִיר וַיִּבְנוּ בַיִת לְדָוִד
OR When Solomon gave Hiram cities, It uses נתן
1Kings 9:12 אָז יִתֵּן הַמֶּלֶךְ שְׁלֹמֹה לְחִירָם עֶשְׂרִים עִיר בְּאֶרֶץ הַגָּלִיל
Or when God gave the "herb which yields seed that is on the face of the earth", It uses נתן
Gen. 1:29 הִנֵּה נָתַתִּי לָכֶם אֶת כׇּל עֵשֶׂב זֹרֵעַ זֶרַע אֲשֶׁר עַל פְּנֵי כׇל הָאָרֶץ
Or when a slave is being released and his owner needs to provide him so and so, It uses the word ענק
Deut. 15:14 הַעֲנֵיק תַּעֲנִיק לוֹ מִצֹּאנְךָ וּמִגׇּרְנְךָ וּמִיִּקְבֶךָ
Or when Joseph provided food for his family, It uses the word כלכל
Gen. 47:12 וַיְכַלְכֵּל יוֹסֵף אֶת אָבִיו וְאֶת אֶחָיו וְאֵת כׇּל בֵּית אָבִיו לֶחֶם לְפִי הַטָּף
These roots appear more in clear cases where we expect to see "providing".
But כרה doesn't appear with wheat, flock, workers, money, and so on...
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Also, please look at:
Psalms 57:7 רֶשֶׁת הֵכִינוּ לִפְעָמַי כָּפַף נַפְשִׁי כָּרוּ לְפָנַי שִׁיחָה נָפְלוּ בְתוֹכָהּ סֶלָה
Psalms 9:16 טָבְעוּ גוֹיִם בְּשַׁחַת עָשׂוּ בְּרֶשֶׁת זוּ טָמָנוּ נִלְכְּדָה רַגְלָם
Look that רשת is prepared, but a שחת/שוחה is a place to fall inside it and which is referred to by כרו.
Why is the difference between these verbs?
And if you claim that כרה is just "providing" (as providing a trap, in these verses above and others),
Why can't we see it comes next to רשת (net) as well?
We would expect at it least once.
After all, it is just about providing.
כרה with the meaning of "setting" a trap (next to a hole, by the way) is found 7 times (without the כרה רעה)
Jer. 18:20 כִּי כָרוּ שׁוּחָה לְנַפְשִׁי
Jer. 18:22 כִּי כָרוּ שׁוּחָה לְלׇכְדֵנִי
But... it continues with וּפַחִים טָמְנוּ לְרַגְלָי - Why not the opposite?
Psalms 7:17 בּוֹר כָּרָה וַיַּחְפְּרֵהוּ וַיִּפֹּל בְּשַׁחַת יִפְעָל
Psalms 27:7 כָּרוּ לְפָנַי שִׁיחָה
Psalms 94:13 עַד יִכָּרֶה לָרָשָׁע שָׁחַת
Psalms 119:85 כָּרוּ לִי זֵדִים שִׁיחוֹת
Pr. 26:27 כֹּרֶה שַּׁחַת בָּהּ יִפּוֹל
But it is not found next to a רשת or פח or מוקש.
All of these words are also traps - but they never come with כרה - but with other verbs.
And so, I ask you, How could it be that every providing of a trap comes only with "holes" but never with other traps.
Why aren't they "provided" as well?
************************************************************************************************************************************
Now let's look at the other cases:
First, this is where this root is about a "ground hole"/well
Gen. 26:25, 50:5*; Ex. 21:33; Num. 21:18; Jer. 18:20, 18:22; Ps. 7:16, 57:7, 94:13, 119:85; Pr. 26:27; 2Ch. 16:14.
The other cases of digging are:
Ps. 40:7 אׇזְנַיִם כָּרִיתָ לִּי
The ears are like a hole in the head (like a well). And in this case, through a metaphor, it is said that the ears are dug (just like a well is dug).
Pr. 16:27 אִישׁ בְּלִיַּעַל כֹּרֶה רָעָה
It is probably a short way of saying that a trap (a hole) was dug for a bad cause.
As you can see above, in the list of verses, this idiom of evil "creates" a trap-hole is very common.
So even though the verse seems not full, it is reasonable to say that it used the act just to point to the known idiom with no need to complete it.
2 Kings 6:23 - (I put it at the end of the lists).
*********
Other cases with the meaning of a "trade, buy"
Gen. 50:5 הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי מֵת בְּקִבְרִי אֲשֶׁר כָּרִיתִי לִי בְּאֶרֶץ כְּנַעַן
Some related this כרה in this verse with the meaning of buying (and some explain it as "dig").
Deut. 2:6 אֹכֶל תִּשְׁבְּרוּ מֵאִתָּם בַּכֶּסֶף וַאֲכַלְתֶּם וְגַם מַיִם תִּכְרוּ מֵאִתָּם בַּכֶּסֶף וּשְׁתִיתֶם
Ho. 3:2 וָאֶכְּרֶהָ לִּי בַּחֲמִשָּׁה עָשָׂר כָּסֶף
Job 6:27 אַף עַל יָתוֹם תַּפִּילוּ וְתִכְרוּ עַל רֵיעֲכֶם
Job 40:30 יִכְרוּ עָלָיו חַבָּרִים יֶחֱצוּהוּ בֵּין כְּנַעֲנִים
(In this case, there are more opinions)
*********
Another verse with that root appears
2Kings 6:23
וַיִּכְרֶה לָהֶם כֵּרָה גְדוֹלָה וַיֹּאכְלוּ וַיִּשְׁתּוּ וַיְשַׁלְּחֵם וַיֵּלְכוּ אֶל אֲדֹנֵיהֶם
It is understood as a meal/feast based on Akkadian.
Some say that the meaning of a feast comes from digging. (And so, it should be on the above list - which is the "digging"-list).
Archeology found holes in the grounds that seem to be made as ovens.
In a book about the Samaritans, this type of cooking is also described.
And another source for that way of cooking is written in the "British museum handbook to the ethnographical collection" which says:
"In the absence of large cooking vessels capable of being placed on the fire, meat was baked on hot stones. The process is somewhat as follows. A pit, three feet or more in diameter, is dug in the ground and filled with wood, which is then set on fire..."
You can download it as a pdf, and continue to read on page 147.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
This was a cave that was already there when Abraham buried his wife.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
How about carefully lying in a cave?
The main point is, that those who see it as "digging" do not create a problem.
I was never buried, so I don't know for sure... But I think that even if there is a cave that is set as a grave site, there would be a prepared place for each person that is about to die and be buried. So Jacob said that he wants to be buried in the grave that he dug.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
So now your answer is very similar to mine, that Jacob had provided that place for himself.
I said from the start that this interpretation is good as well.
I also said that כרה also comes with a meaning relating to trading (also close to providing, but not so much).
The argument between us is that you see every כרה as provide, and don't accept it as "dig".
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
ducky wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:59 am
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:54 pm
“Boring” is a type of digging.
Let us not be confused about how we see acts, and how languages "chose" to define these acts.
The languages didn’t choose, rather speakers of the languages chose how to use their languages.
You're right. Next time I'll write the word [Chose] as ["chose"].
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
Would נקר be so recognized?
Not really.
נקר is about sticking something out. Like an eye, or rocks by punching with a sharp object.
And so it referred to the thing that was put out (the eye), and not to the hole itself (the eye socket).
I can לנקר your eye, but I can't לנקר your eye socket.
Like the difference between 'digging' a hole, and 'digging out' something (--from the hole--).
This act of sticking out stuff through punching and cutting with sharp objects eventually got the idea of picking on hard surfaces - like wood, bones, rocks, and so on.
***
Roots that are about piercing:
נקב
2Kings 12:10 וַיִּקֹּב חֹר בְּדַלְתּוֹ made a hole in its lid.
Job 40:26 וּבְחוֹחַ תִּקֹּב לֶחֱיוֹ bore his jaw through with a hook.
רצע
Ex. 21:6 וְרָצַע אֲדֹנָיו אֶת אׇזְנוֹ בַּמַּרְצֵעַ and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl.
A root that is about digging.
חפר
Gen. 21:30 כִּי חָפַרְתִּי אֶת הַבְּאֵר הַזֹּאת I dug this well
I intentionally brought the context.
The question is if the root that means "dig" can act as the roots that mean "pierce, bore" and vice versa.
I don't think so. But it could be that I'm wrong.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
Show me how that fits? To have objects without a verb as expected from the previous words?
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:09 pm
Exactly, And understanding the text leads to the understanding that a verb is used in that place in Psalm 22:17.
I have my reasons not to talk about it right now. And Therefore, I am not trying to convince you to change your understanding, or to "fight about it".
As I said in my first post in this thread, I'm here only to "argue" about the meaning of כרה. And I don't want to open a discussion about כארי/כארו because it is too long, and also for other reasons.