how to pronounce some words

[bdenckla]

It might be interesting to contrast Isaiah 1:2 וְרוֹמַ֔מְתִּי with Isaiah 33:3 מֵר֣וֹמְמֻתֶ֔ךָ, in terms of how they look on the Al-Hatorah edition of MAM:




(If those images don't work, see this GitHub Gist.)

In terms of Jacobson’s technical phonetic transcription style, these two words would look like this:

v^e-ró-MAM-tí
mé-ró-m^e-mu-TE-kha

(That's using not only Jacobson’s style, but also Jacobson’s target pronunciation of Hebrew. Of course, the pronunciation of Hebrew varies over time and place, from community to community.)

BTW I am working on producing a phonetic edition derived from Al-Hatorah that provides phonetic transcriptions of the entire Tanakh, in both Jacobson-style transcriptions and IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) transcriptions.

[bdenckla]

You can see some very different transcriptions (very different in both style and substance) at hebrewgreekbible.online

Isaiah 1:2 wə·rō·w·mam·tî
Isaiah 33:3 mê·rō·wm·mu·ṯe·ḵā

I find both of those transcriptions suspect, but what's really cool about hebrewgreekbible.online is you can listen to an expert reader (at some fraction of normal speed) and make your own decisions about what sheva quality choices (vocal vs silent) are being made by that reader!

[bdenckla]

I find the Koren sheva na/naḥ distinction a little hard to see when there's not both nearby to compare/contrast. But once you get used to it, you can see how the dots of the na (vocal) are significantly bigger than all other dots, e.g. in segol, tsere, zaqef, etc.

Here's what Koren looks like for the two words in question:




If those images don't come through, try this GitHub Gist comment.

[Kenneth Greifer]

I find the Koren sheva na/naḥ distinction a little hard to see when there's not both nearby to compare/contrast. But once you get used to it, you can see how the dots of the na (vocal) are significantly bigger than all other dots, e.g. in segol, tsere, zaqef, etc.

Here's what Koren looks like for the two words in question:




If those images don't come through, try this GitHub Gist comment.

I think that it would be better if they used really different looking vowels for any vowels that have more than one possible sound. For example, a vocal shwa could have 2 sets of 2 dots instead of just 2 dots. The problem for me is not just reading the Hebrew Bible because there are sites like Bible Hub that have word by word phonetic readings, but I was looking at a book called "201 Hebrew Verbs." I can't look up a word in there to see how it would be pronounced. Still, no one is explaining how you know which syllable is accented just from looking at a word in Hebrew in the Bible or anywhere else.
Kenneth Greifer

[ducky]

Hi,

The matter of the Shewa is not supposed to be very complicated.
I can imagine that grammar books give "signs" that indicate a mobile Shewa, I wonder if you ever saw them.
(I'll write them here anyway).

******

But just to understand the basics...
A mobile Shewa is just a reduced vowel.
Meaning that there was a vowel in the Basic form of a word, but in another form of the word it was replaced by a Shewa.
(Quiescent Shewa is an original vowel that stays in all forms).

What is the basic form?
The basic form of the verb is the perfect 3person singular [in the same verb form (qal for qal, piel for piel and so on...]
(I leave nouns aside for now).

And so, a word like הוּרְמוּ is perfect 3p plural of Hophal.
So, you need to take it back to perfect 3p singular of Hophal - which is הוּרַם (huram)
You can see that the letter R gets a vowel in its basic form (ra).
And so, every time there would be a Shewa in the letter R, you know that this is a reduced vowel (a Mobile shewa).
(And with that, this Shewa opens the next syllable, making the previous one opened (hu-rəmu).

****
These are the famous signs for a mobile Shewa that was given by Elia Levita.

A. A Shewa in the beginning of the word is a Mobile Shewa.
(You can remember that because A in the beginning of the Alphabet).

B. The second Shewa of two straight ones (one after the other) is a Mobile Shewa (the first one is quiescent).
(you can remember that because B is the second letter of the Alphabet).

C. A Shewa after an unstressed big/"long" vowel is a Mobile Shewa.
(you can remember that maybe by seeing C as Capital (for a big vowel)).

D. A Shewa in a Dageshed letter is mobile.
(D for Dagesh).

E. A Shewa in the first letter of two identical letters is Mobile (like מרוממים for example)
(As for this sign, it is not very accurate, but if we are liberal in our reading, it is okay).

So maybe if you use these signs, it will help you with your reading.
*********************

[bdenckla]

The problem for me is not just reading the Hebrew Bible because there are sites like Bible Hub that have word by word phonetic readings

I wouldn't trust those phonetic transcriptions at BibleHub. I'm guessing that that's where the weird ones I showed from hebrewgreekbible.online came from. (Or both sites have a third, common source.) Bible Hub has the following suspect transcriptions of the two example words I've been using:

wə-rō-w-mam-tî
mê-rō-wm-mu-ṯe-ḵā

I'm not even concerned about how it handles the sheva distinctions we're talking about. What I find immediately, obviously suspect are those lonely syllables consisting merely of "w" and "wm". Surely in other cases it can handle a plain old ḥolam malei?! Maybe its vav problems are related to its struggle with sheva.

Two transliterators you could try are the following (I'm not endorsing all their results, but they'll probably do better than BibleHub):

• hebrewtransliteration.app
• alittlehebrew.com

With my particular settings, they give, respectively,

• vaʀ̟oːˈmaːamtʰiː meːˈʀ̟oːmamuːˈθɛːχɔː
• Veʁoːˈmamtiː meːʁoːmemuˈteχaː

no one is explaining how you know which syllable is accented just from looking at a word in Hebrew in the Bible or anywhere else.

To find the stressed syllable of a word in the Bible, you have to learn how to read the accents. For some accents this is simple, they just sit on the first letter of the syllable that they are marking as stressed. For the two example words I've been using, both happen to be accented simply like this, with zaqef qatan (looks like a sheva (two vertically-aligned dots) but on top of the letter).

For other accents, in particular prepositives and postpositives, it is more complicated, particularly in the wildly popular but reader-unfriendly derivatives of WLC that are 99% of what you find on the Internet. Like BibleHub. For a more reader-friendly Hebrew text, I'd recommend editions of MAM like that on Al-Hatorah, Sefaria, or Hebrew Wikisource.

Actually even one of the two example words I've been using is a little more complicated than I let on: there's a munaḥ accent in one of the words that you need to skip over to find the later zaqef qatan that indicates primary stress.

I don't know off the top of my head what the best source for accents is on the Internet. The best English language paper book (also available as an Adobe Digital Editions glorified PDF) is Jacobson's book.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Ben Denckla and Ducky, thank you for answering me.
I am not just asking about how you know where accents are in words for reading the Hebrew Bible with the accents written out. I was asking because I was trying to study how verbs are conjugated in other books so I could understand Biblical Hebrew better, but those books don't give accents and stuff like that. In those books, I was not sure how to pronounce the verbs.

I get the feeling that you have to know Hebrew to know how to read these words because the vowels are not always clear, especially if it is a silent or vocal schwa. (I need more time to study what you said, ducky, if that is what you want to be called?). I realize that it is like English where the letter "a" can be pronounced many different ways, so the only way to know how to read words correctly is to look up every word in the dictionary to see a transliteration or you have to learn English to read it properly. I also think that it is unfortunate that the people who invented the vowels did not invent at least two more for the vowels that have more than one possible sound. It wouldn't have killed them to have a different symbol for vocal and silent schwas, in my opinion. We have to work with what those people came up with, so that is life.
Kenneth Greifer

[ducky]

I sense through your tone that you are somewhat close to despair.
Don't take it too complicated.

1. Start reading from the bible, only prose. Not prophecies, not poetry. Focus on stories, so the context would be very easy to understand (He did this, and she went there). Like the story of Joseph, Moses, David, Ruth and more like them.

2. As to finding the stressed syllable, read from the bible that has the cantillation marks. You don't need to understand them. Only use them as indicators of where the stress is on the word (by the way, early step of the evolution of markings was just pointing where the stress is).

3. As to the Shewa, just use the signs mentioned above.

For example, look at Ezekiel, 39:10
וְלֹא⁠־יִשְׂא֨וּ עֵצִ֜ים מִן⁠־הַשָּׂדֶ֗ה וְלֹ֤א יַחְטְבוּ֙ מִן⁠־הַיְּעָרִ֔ים כִּ֥י בַנֶּ֖שֶׁק יְבַעֲרוּ⁠־אֵ֑שׁ וְשָׁלְל֣וּ אֶת⁠־שֹׁלְלֵיהֶ֗ם וּבָֽזְזוּ֙ אֶת⁠־בֹּ֣זְזֵיהֶ֔ם
so where are the mobile Shewas here?

ולא the Shewa in the W/V=ו is the first letter in the word (sign A)
יחטבו the Shewa in the t=ט is the second of two (sign B)
היערים the Shewa in the Y=י is a dageshed letter (sign D)
יבערו the Shewa in the Y=י is the first letter in the word (sign A)
ושללו the Shewa in the W/V=ו is the first letter in the word (sign A)
ושללו the Shewa in the L=ל is after an unstressed big vowel (Qamats in the ש) -- And also it is the first L out of two L's.
שלליהם the Shewa in the L=ל is after an unstressed big vowel (Holam in the ש) -- And also it is the first L out of two L's.
Same thing about בזזו and בזזיהם

The second word in the verse doesn't follow the signs, and so, it is quiescent.
(Basically, it is a mobile Shewa that is read as quiescent, but that shouldn't bother you if you just focus on the signs)

**
Anyway, as much as you keep reading, the Shewas (mobile or not) will come out of you in a natural way, because it is just a repeating pattern of forms.

***
One last thing, just for to not be confused:

For sign C: (after big vowel)...
The conjunctive Vav comes with Shuruk sometimes (just like the first V in ובזזו in that verse above) - That Vowel is considered to be small, and a Shewa that comes after it is quiescent (like Ezekiel 39:12 וּקְבָרוּם=uq-va-rum).

And for sign B (a second Sheva of two straight ones is Shewa) - of course it doesn't apply when this Shewa is at the end of the word (like Ezekiel 16:37 אהבת and ערבת)

[bdenckla]

I also think that it is unfortunate that the people who invented the vowels did not invent at least two more for the vowels that have more than one possible sound. It wouldn't have killed them to have a different symbol for vocal and silent schwas, in my opinion. We have to work with what those people came up with, so that is life.

As I mentioned, though their editions are little known in the Christian world, many Jewish-oriented publishers have done a huge amount of work to modestly extend the Tiberian pointing system to make some distinctions (like sheva distinctions) that are missing from the Tiberian system. It is indeed puzzling that the Tiberian system lacks some distinctions we find important. It is particularly puzzling (or at least, frustrating) because the Tiberian Masoretes seem so obsessed with all sorts of phonetic distinctions that are largely or totally gone now. (11 distinct vowel markings, presumably reflecting at least theoretically different sounds!) Bottom line, the Masoretes didn't have a crystal ball, so they preserved all sorts of distinctions that are superfluous to most of us, while failing to preserve some distinctions that are critical to most of us!

Other than sheva distinctions, the other main thing missing from the Tiberian system are qamats distinctions. Arguably these are less important than sheva distinctions but they are more commonly available in publications! (The argument would be that it is a bigger deal to add or subtract a syllable than it is to say a syllable with the "wrong" vowel sound.)

[ducky]

The Tiberian didn't make Qamats distinctions because they had only one Qamats with one sound- so there was nothing to distinct.
It is only other dialects that didn't pronounce the Qamats but used the Tiberian system, created two sounds for the Qamats according to their tradition (the tradition that we basically follow in speech).

As for the Shewas - it is somewhat fluid.
Because in the traditional reading, it is not fully about "grammar".
A grammatical Mobile Sheva can be read as silent and vice versa.
And the Tiberian dialect for example, had different ways.
But indeed, there are cases that it was "nice" to see more signs.