B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:02 am

Jemoh66 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:48 pm It’s a conflation of the phrase sha’ul me-el.

What do Shmuel and Shaul have to do with one another? Shmuel was a prophet before Shaul became a king. I don't see the connection.

From the JPS notes:
Connected with sha’ul me’el “asked of God”; cf. vv. 17, 27–28.

Jemoh66 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:01 pm

Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:02 am

Jemoh66 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:48 pm It’s a conflation of the phrase sha’ul me-el.

What do Shmuel and Shaul have to do with one another? Shmuel was a prophet before Shaul became a king. I don't see the connection.

From the JPS notes:
Connected with sha’ul me’el “asked of God”; cf. vv. 17, 27–28.

Ah. I was thinking of שאול as the name, not as the passive participle. Nice.

The Hebrew act שאל as in
וַתִּקְרָא אֶת שְׁמוֹ שְׁמוּאֵל כִּי מֵיהוה שְׁאִלְתִּיו
has two meanings. It may mean 'ask', as in Gen. 43:7
וַיֹּאמְרוּ שָׁאוֹל שָׁאַל הָאִישׁ לָנוּ וּלְמוֹלַדְתֵּנוּ לֵאמֹר הַעוֹד אֲבִיכֶם חַי הֲיֵשׁ לָכֶם אָח
KJV: "And they said, The man asked us straitly of our state, and of our kindred, saying, Is your father yet alive? have ye another brother? "
or it may mean 'borrow, retrieve', as in Ex. 3:22
וְשָׁאֲלָה אִשָּׁה מִשְּׁכֶנְתָּהּ וּמִגָּרַת בֵּיתָהּ כְּלֵי כֶסֶף וּכְלֵי זָהָב וּשְׂמָלֹת
KJV: "But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment"
So, כִּי מֵיהוה שְׁאִלְתִּיו may obliquely hint to the possibility that the biological father of Shmuel was actually one of the sons of עֵלִי, the busy חָפְנִי or פִנְחָס. We know that they had this serious function at the temple in שִׁלֹה to help young "barren" women realize their dream of having a baby. Here it is clearly stated, in 1Sam. 2:22
וְעֵלִי זָקֵן מְאֹד וְשָׁמַע אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשׂוּן בָּנָיו לְכָל יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאֵת אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכְּבוּן אֶת הַנָּשִׁים הַצֹּבְאוֹת פֶּתַח אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד
KJV: "Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the tent of meeting"

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com

Could someone write the hebrew out for "sha’ul me-el" ?

Thanxs!

Glenn

Jemoh66 is completely correct, but just to include the vowels: שָׁאוּל מֵאֵל šāʾûl mēʾēl.

thanxs for the Hebrew Jemoh66, Jason!

Isaac Fried wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:28 pm We know that they had this serious function at the temple in שִׁלֹה to help young "barren" women realize their dream of having a baby. Here it is clearly stated, in 1Sam. 2:22
וְעֵלִי זָקֵן מְאֹד וְשָׁמַע אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשׂוּן בָּנָיו לְכָל יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאֵת אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכְּבוּן אֶת הַנָּשִׁים הַצֹּבְאוֹת פֶּתַח אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד
KJV: "Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the tent of meeting"

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com

In verse 1:19 it specifically says that Elqanah and Hannah slept together and precisely at that time that God remembered her (obtensibly implying that it was Elqanah that impregnanted Hannah), and then in verse 1:20 shes gives birth to Samuel.

BUT I did find it very odd that Elqanah appears to have had no part in the naming of their son - Hannah named him Samuel (with no apparent input from Elqanah) - this may be evidence that Elqanah is not the father ?????

Glenn

No. You are correct. The passage does not support such an aberration. Elqanah was not impotent. It was Hannah that was barren.
As for the naming, it was standard fair for the mother to name the child. Or as in the case of Obed, the women of the town named him.

I think that we need to listen not only to what the תנך proclaims loudly, but also to what it whispers softly between the lines.
Possibly, the name אֶלְקָנָה = אל-קנא is also a hint that the man was not אל jealous or vindictive קנא. See Nu. 5:14
וְעָבַר עָלָיו רוּחַ קִנְאָה וְקִנֵּא אֶת-אִשְׁתּוֹ וְהִוא נִטְמָאָה אוֹ עָבַר עָלָיו רוּחַ קִנְאָה וְקִנֵּא אֶת אִשְׁתּוֹ וְהִיא לֹא נִטְמָאָה
NIV: " and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure"
What verse 1:19 says
וַיָּבֹאוּ אֶל בֵּיתָם הָרָמָתָה וַיֵּדַע אֶלְקָנָה אֶת חַנָּה אִשְׁתּוֹ וַיִּזְכְּרֶהָ יהוה
Does not mean much, except that an imminent overt scandal was averted.
Notice that the promise for a son came only from עֵלִי ( not אֵלִי ), who conceivably understood what his sons are capable of.
When the boy Samuel reached the age of three חנה took him to his great father in שילה, possibly fearing (after having read the fearful story of Abraham and Isaac) that אֶלְקָנָה may start to hear echo voices reverberating in his heart telling him to sacrifice his son.

Notice also the very interesting name אֱלִיהוּא in verse 1 of 1Sam. 1.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com

There is one thing more to say about the Hebrew root שאל. The original meaning of שאל is 'lift', as is the meaning of the related toots שוּל and שלה. By symmetry it may also mean 'deep', and hence the word שְאוֹל, 'grave', derived from this root. It is found in חנה's, evocative, full and innuendoes, thanks-giving song in 1Sam 2:6
יהוה מֵמִית וּמְחַיֶּה מוֹרִיד שְׁאוֹל וַיָּעַל
KJV: "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up"

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com